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The Mark of Torah - Lust Chizuk
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Im Paga be’cha menuval zeh, mushchei'hu le- BEIS HAMEDRASH! This board is for divrei Torah relating to our struggle with the Yetzer Hara, from the entire spectrum of Tanach, Chazal, Mussar and Chassidus. On this board there will be no posts about personal struggles and no debates. Only TORAH CHIZUK.
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The Mark of Torah - Lust Chizuk 02 Dec 2015 03:57 #270101

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  1. TORAH TAVLIN: a) Torah is not a blanket protection and can actually do the opposite if not approached correctly.  b) May not work for all forms ofYetzer Hara
  2. Gd wants our small sacrifice and effort
  3. ODAAT: One Day at a Time. And a nice source for ODAAT.
  4. DO SOMETHING: When facing a personal challenge,We can't say "I tried, I cried, I prayed", No no no! Do something positive!!
  5. BECHIRA: The "main" bechira we have is to avoid triggering situations in the first place
  6. THE 3 SECOND RULE: The pasuk is telling us - do not follow your heart to take that second look
  7. THE REAL PROBLEM: To me it seems poshut that the problem is lusting not shmiras eynayim
  8. WHITE KNUCLING: Is not the Torah way so cut the Confrontations . Which according to the Torah way will not succeed
  9. Is everyone in the world an addict?
  10. WIFE: Is she your Pas Besalo?
    :pinch: Warning: Spoiler!
  11. INTENT: I'm a lustaholic and I want Intimacy leshem shamayim. Honest?
  12. TESHUVA: Teshuva (the way we understand it) is NOT recovery but a ploy
  13. in the Zohar, it is said the sin of wasted seed is the worst sin for which no recovery is possible. And that relations with non-Jews attaches to us even in Olam Haba. What are the defenses against these charges?

SCOURCES:
  1. The prohibition of V'NISHMARTA and V'LO SASURU
  2. including undressed unmarried gentile women
  3. A wife is like bread?

HOLIDAYS
  1. Chanuka - ODAAT
  2. Thank Gd - Al Hanissim
  3. The 3 Weeks - We are building the Beis Hamikdash with GYE
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Last Edit: 25 Sep 2016 18:44 by Markz.

The Mark of Torah - Lust Chizuk 03 Dec 2015 03:52 #270208

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INDEX quotes (from other threads)

1- Repent! For addiction its enough the tremendous effort and accomplishment of getting over the addiction! Rav Wosner
2- moshol by Watson
3- Can we truly correct 30 years and have a תחיית המתים in 90 days?
4- What in the world does Hashem want from me?
5- The Torah approach to Sobriety
6- Great Shiurim
7- Could one have an excuse to act out
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Last Edit: 08 May 2016 16:02 by Markz.

The Mark of Torah - Lust Chizuk 03 Dec 2015 03:52 #270209

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TORAH TAVLIN FOR ADDICTS?

I hope everyone has been following the current great Chizuk emails on this topic by Dov

Here's my 2 cents

We all know the story of one of the most famous Amoraim R' Nachman bar Yitzchak (the Rebbi of Abaya)

When he was a child, a stargazer told his mother he's destined to be a robber. She instructed her son to keep a Yarmulka on his head and Daven.

The Gemara relates that one day he was deep in his learning, and his head covering fell off. Immediately the Yetzer Hara grabbed hold and overpowered him
יומא חד יתיב קא גריס תותי דיקלא נפל גלימא מעילויה רישיה דלי עיניה חזא לדיקלא אלמיה יצריה סליק פסקיה לקיבורא בשיניה
(סוף מס' שבת)

This Gemara is astounding!
If my understanding is correct, the heilige Gemara that I love so dearly, is teaching a profound lesson - that Gemara Tavlin is not the solution to all Yetzer Hara's, even if you are the Godol hador.

Many of us will accept that argument, but will not be ready to take it to the next level

There are many that will say "Ok I concede, Limud Hatorah isn't going to gain me sobriety BUT I will only take recovery steps IF they are mentioned in the Torah, otherwise I won't, e.g. the 12 steps".

If you really aren't interested in sobriety, you(r YH) will easily be able to shlog op any proofs showing that the 12 steps are found in the Torah

Secondly - having to find proofs in the Torah is only something our YH demands, so that he can keep us under his thumb, it's not coming from a healthy place.

If the Torah demands of us to be sober, and the tools are staring you in the face, no more explanation necessary!

Baby steps... Easy does it my friends!!
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Last Edit: 25 May 2016 01:43 by Markz.

The Mark of Torah - Lust Chizuk 03 Dec 2015 03:53 #270210

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DO I NEED TO GO THE EXTRA INCH?


markz wrote:

my friend wrote:

I am a respected bal habays in my mid 30's who is kovei etim and davens with minyanim daily

Your davenin' and learnin' may mean nothing to Gd, cos it's just something you do naturally....
We only earn points when we do ONE small difficult thing. Correction - when we do ONE percent of that!

All the best my good friend

eslaasos wrote:

Please don't say the learning and davening of a compulsive luster may mean nothing to G-d. If you do, please back it up with a source.


markz wrote:
Waydown I want to apologize to you if I came across a little harsh, as though I was saying your תורה ומצות aren't worth כלום. I wasn't trying to say that AT ALL
I was saying that we all have our little struggle, and I will confess - one of my little struggles is to say things nicely - I'm not very good at that - my wife knows all about it too...


markz wrote:
As I said above i should've written it a little lighter - sorry about that.
Yes there are sparks of genuineness at THE BARE MINIMUM.
but I was making a point which is valid
You Shlomo 24/7 is a good example of someone that has
done ONE small difficult thing. Correction - when ONE percent of that! (You did alot more than 1%)

This is is why I complimented you on your thread for being strong even during vacation period.
A bachur that behaves in yeshiva - yes he will be rewarded by Gd - BUT that doesn't define who he is. He in essence may be a porn addict, only cant act out due to some restraints (this was the idea mentioned by R' Yisroel Salanter ibid)
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Last Edit: 03 Dec 2015 11:48 by Markz.

The Mark of Torah - Lust Chizuk 03 Dec 2015 03:53 #270211

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eslaasos wrote:
eslaasos wrote:
markz wrote:
eslaasos and Shlomo, sorry I should've written it a little lighter. But the point was valid
eslaasos wrote:
please back it up with a source

R Yisroel Salanter

image.jpg


Mark, thanks for the source. Tzorich iyun godol, and I don't just mean I don't have an answer for you, which is also true, I mean that I don't think it's as straightforward as you present it, but I don't have the yedios to answer. I'll keep this in mind in my future travels.


Markz, just a thought that was discussed on Shabbos. One aspect of Avrohom Avinu's biggest test was to be an achzor, the opposite of his middah of chesed. However he (perhaps primarily) invested his efforts in utilizing his inborn middah of chesed as his way of serving Hashem.
There is a Gemara that brings this out, but I don't want to make this a long post. If you think this will become a separate conversation, maybe open a new thread in the Beis Hamedrash section.

Waydown, sorry to interrupt your conversation, please carry on. I just wanted to respond to Markz on his post from R' Yisroel Salanter that happens to be a few pages back in your thread.
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The Mark of Torah - Lust Chizuk 03 Dec 2015 03:54 #270212

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Hashivalisesonyishecho wrote:

Avraham avinu utilized his natural middah to perform his avoda which was full of mesiras nefesh. For example he was one person bringing amunah into the world against everyone else. This was an uphill battle envolving mesiras nefesh mamash. He harnassed and utilized his best faculties in this avodah so he used his midas hachesed which was a natural strength. Had he tried to do it with midas hagvurah he would have been less effective because that was not his greatest strength. When it was necessary, of course, he worked with that middah too, like by the akaida. But for a person to just kind of sit back and let his nature lead him in the course of no resistance, that's what Reb Yisrael Salanter is referring to. And this has infinite levels, and to the extent that a person pushes himself beyond his natural comfort zone to do mitzvos, so is the chashivus of his avoda. We should all do mitzvos utilizing our strengths but demanding of ourselves to go the extra mile.
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The Mark of Torah - Lust Chizuk 03 Dec 2015 03:54 #270213

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eslaasos wrote:
That makes a lot of sense, thank you for the elucidation.
I still don't like the original comment that the learning and davening of a luster may not be worth anything. First, I don't think it's possible to stay consistent with shemiras hasedarim and tefillah btzibur without mesiras nefesh.
My second issue that there is inherent value in learning and davening even if it does become more habitual and requires less sacrifice seems to be the subject of the quote. The quote initially seems to go beyond your understanding - "The obligation is to strive in Avodas Hashem, not to only keep what his nature allows, and what is a little difficult...this can be termed a Porek Ol". However the next sentence seems to be more in line with your understanding - "if he does not put any effort into his Avodas Hashem".
I'm not familiar with the style of this author to be able to be medayek the nuances, so unless someone has more to add I'm fine with your interpretation.

Agav, I believe Rav Dessler has a concept that true lishmah is when the mitzvos become so naturally a part of you that you can't envision yourself not doing them. The same way you wake up, get out of bed and get dressed, part of the morning process is washing your hands and saying Modeh Ani. This requires no mesiras nefesh.
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The Mark of Torah - Lust Chizuk 03 Dec 2015 03:54 #270214

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Hashivalisesonyishecho wrote:

Obviously we must strive to become a person with good values and middos and keeping The Torah is the formula to make that happen. When that happens it has tremendous inherent value, but his 'avoda' then moves on to continue to improve where he has not yet reached. If a person at any point says 'well at this point I'm good enough as I am so no more striving and hard work is necessary' then he has ceased to do 'avoda' and he is neglecting his further responsibilities to do what he has not yet done, because the avoda is never finished no matter how good his midos have reached so far. If he does stop to continue this 'avoda' at that point he is a porek ol.
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The Mark of Torah - Lust Chizuk 03 Dec 2015 05:14 #270227

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Hi Markz,
A very good evening to you, and I'm sure that you won't see this until tomorrow because of your good-night device.

Maybe you can help me understand your points above.

markz wrote:
markz wrote:

my friend wrote:

I am a respected bal habays in my mid 30's who is kovei etim and davens with minyanim daily

Your davenin' and learnin' may mean nothing to Gd, cos it's just something you do naturally....
We only earn points when we do ONE small difficult thing. Correction - when we do ONE percent of that!

All the best my good friend

eslaasos wrote:

Please don't say the learning and davening of a compulsive luster may mean nothing to G-d. If you do, please back it up with a source.


markz wrote:
Waydown I want to apologize to you if I came across a little harsh, as though I was saying your תורה ומצות aren't worth כלום. I wasn't trying to say that AT ALL
I was saying that we all have our little struggle, and I will confess - one of my little struggles is to say things nicely - I'm not very good at that - my wife knows all about it too...


markz wrote:
As I said above i should've written it a little lighter - sorry about that.
Yes there are sparks of genuineness at THE BARE MINIMUM.
but I was making a point which is valid


I'm not getting your point. I think we've agreed that if a guy finds it easier to be moser nefesh for learning and davening than being moser nefesh in shmiras eynayim and kedusha, that's not a reason not to continue putting in efforts into learning and davening. It's also doesn't relieve him of his obligation to fight the battle of kedusha, but so what? Is your point that if he ignores the second responsibility he is culpable? I think that's also something we can agree on.

markz
You Shlomo 24/7 is a good example of someone that has
done ONE small difficult thing. Correction - when ONE percent of that! (You did alot more than 1%)

This is is why I complimented you on your thread for being strong even during vacation period.
A bachur that behaves in yeshiva - yes he will be rewarded by Gd - BUT that doesn't define who he is. He in essence may be a porn addict, only cant act out due to some restraints (this was the idea mentioned by R' Yisroel Salanter ibid)

Again I'm missing your point. Why does it matter how Shlomo is defined, and why does he have to be defined as any one thing?

Lastly, how does this tie in to the Torah Tavlin theme? I admit it, I am not overly familiar with it as I am not a fan of the level of press given to this theme, as I think it's not the mehalech for the majority as the author himself has written. Perhaps Torah and Tefillah are part of the hishtadlus for overcoming lust or lust addiction?
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Last Edit: 03 Dec 2015 05:15 by eslaasos.

The Mark of Torah - Lust Chizuk 03 Dec 2015 12:17 #270245

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Eslaasos,

I moved those posts here, because the topic has been well discussed especially with your kind participation, and I wanted it to be moved out of a personal story thread.

I had another 2 cents to add, which I hope to later today.

"Lastly, how does this tie in to the Torah Tavlin theme?"
None. See the index, and I updated the header of our shared topic - see above

Thanks for your chizuk, an your new signature
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The Mark of Torah - Lust Chizuk 03 Dec 2015 12:35 #270246

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Hashivalisesonyishecho wrote:

Avraham avinu utilized his natural middah to perform his avoda which was full of mesiras nefesh. For example he was one person bringing amunah into the world against everyone else. This was an uphill battle envolving mesiras nefesh mamash. He harnassed and utilized his best faculties in this avodah so he used his midas hachesed which was a natural strength. Had he tried to do it with midas hagvurah he would have been less effective because that was not his greatest strength. When it was necessary, of course, he worked with that middah too, like by the akaida. But for a person to just kind of sit back and let his nature lead him in the course of no resistance, that's what Reb Yisrael Salanter is referring to. And this has infinite levels, and to the extent that a person pushes himself beyond his natural comfort zone to do mitzvos, so is the chashivus of his avoda. We should all do mitzvos utilizing our strengths but demanding of ourselves to go the extra mile.

avrahamavinu.jpg
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Last Edit: 03 Dec 2015 12:36 by Markz.

The Mark of Torah - Lust Chizuk 03 Dec 2015 19:52 #270332

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כתב בספר החסידים שעל מצוה אחת שיצרו של אדם מתגרה בו ותוקפו להעבירו על דעת קונו, והוא כופה את יצרו, מקבל שכר נגד מאה מצוות שאין יצרו תוקפו. וזה טעם מאמר רבותינו זכרונם לברכה שאמרו (ברכות לד ב) במקום שבעלי תשובה עומדין, אין צדיקים גמורים יכולים לעמד. לפי שכיון שהם צדיקים דמעקרא אין להם גרוי היצר הרע כל כך כמו הבעלי תשובה שהרגלו בעברות וקשה להם לפרש מהם כפרישת הצפרן מן הבשר, הנה כי כן כאשר מתגברים על יצרם כאיש מלחמה, וכופים את יצרם, עושים נחת רוח גדול ליוצרנו ויגדל שכרם. וזה פרשו כת הקודמין מאמר רבותינו זכרונם לברכה (ברכות ח, א) גדול הנהנה מיגיעו יותר מירא שמים. דרצונם לומר, גדול הנהנה מיגיעו שיגע הרבה לכבש את יצרו, יותר ממי שהוא ירא שמים בטבע, שהנהנה מיגיעו טוב לו יותר לעולם הבא. הנה כי כן ראוי לשמח על היצר הרע שיש בנו כי על ידו אנו עושים נחת רוח ליוצרנו, ועל ידו אנו זוכים למתן שכרן של צדיקים רב טוב

פלא יועץ - ערך כופה
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Last Edit: 03 Dec 2015 19:54 by Markz.

The Mark of Torah - Lust Chizuk 04 Dec 2015 19:10 #270458

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Re: 2) Do I need to go the extra mile inch?

בן עזאי אומר הוי רץ למצוה קלה - כבר אמרו טעם בזה הדבר בפרק שני לפי שאין אתה יודע מתן שכרן של מצות. ועתה בן עזאי הוסיף טעם אחר ואמר הוי רץ למצוה קלה ובורח מן העבירה שמצוה גוררת מצוה מכח הטבע כי הוא זה. כי בעשות האדם מצוה קטנה פעם אחת הוא מתקרב את השם ומרגיל את רוחו לעבודתו ונקלה בעיניו לעשות מצוה אחרת שיש בה טורח כנגד הראשונה או יותר מעט מפני שכבר הורגל טבעו למלאכת המצוה. וכי יעשה שניה |לשלישי| |ושלישי| אף כי תהיה עליו לטורח הרבה מן הראשונות יעשנה מהרה כי כבר הרגל שולט עליו הרבה עד כי ישלוט עליו עד מאד ויעשה כל המצות כלן והעבירה גוררת עבירה גם זה מן הטבע אחר שעשה עבירה אחת ונתרחק מעבודת השם ית' כי תבא לידי עבירה אחרת אף כי אין היצר מתאוה אליה כבראשונה יעשנה כי רוחו עלול אל היצר ותוקף עליו ואם אין מתאוה גדולה בדבר ההוא אך יעשה כל העבירות כי טבעו מורגל לעשות כל תועבת השם אשר שנא. ר יונה פרקי אבות
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Last Edit: 04 Dec 2015 19:12 by Markz.

The Mark of Torah - Lust Chizuk 06 Dec 2015 02:06 #270506

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To summarize the conversation above, it seems to me there is a distinction that can be summed up as the difference between Avodah and Nisayon.
Avodas Hashem is what we were born for, and one of the highest accolades a person can receive is being an eved Hashem. Odom l’omol yulad etc.
A nisayon however is something we are supposed to avoid. We daven v’al tevieinu lidei nisayon.

Perhaps Avodas Hashem is where we utilize our strengths to be marbe kvod shomayim, and a nisayon is when we are challenged by our weaknesses, or asked to overcome our natural inclinations. Both can involve mesiras nefesh, but the reward is much greater for overcoming a nisayon.
I think I posted previously a vort that bears repeating here. The chiddush of lfum tzaara agra is that even if the nisayon is self-created, it still qualifies. Most of us were not born addicts (although we may have addictive tendencies). A slip here and there became more frequent, turned into a habit, was reinforced until it became our jailer. I’m sure Markz can find the chazal about the guest who becomes the baal habayis. This still qualifies us for the status of bmakom shebaalei teshuva omdim etc. as quoted above.
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The Mark of Torah - Lust Chizuk 06 Dec 2015 02:36 #270508

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eslaasos wrote:
To summarize the conversation above, it seems to me there is a distinction that can be summed up as the difference between Avodah and Nisayon.
Avodas Hashem is what we were born for, and one of the highest accolades a person can receive is being an eved Hashem. Odom l’omol yulad etc.
A nisayon however is something we are supposed to avoid. We daven v’al tevieinu lidei nisayon.

Perhaps Avodas Hashem is where we utilize our strengths to be marbe kvod shomayim, and a nisayon is when we are challenged by our weaknesses, or asked to overcome our natural inclinations. Both can involve mesiras nefesh, but the reward is much greater for overcoming a nisayon.
I think I posted previously a vort that bears repeating here. The chiddush of lfum tzaara agra is that even if the nisayon is self-created, it still qualifies. Most of us were not born addicts (although we may have addictive tendencies). A slip here and there became more frequent, turned into a habit, was reinforced until it became our jailer. I’m sure Markz can find the chazal about the guest who becomes the baal habayis. This still qualifies us for the status of bmakom shebaalei teshuva omdim etc. as quoted above.


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