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The Mark of Torah - Lust Chizuk
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Im Paga be’cha menuval zeh, mushchei'hu le- BEIS HAMEDRASH! This board is for divrei Torah relating to our struggle with the Yetzer Hara, from the entire spectrum of Tanach, Chazal, Mussar and Chassidus. On this board there will be no posts about personal struggles and no debates. Only TORAH CHIZUK.

TOPIC: The Mark of Torah - Lust Chizuk 69291 Views

The Mark of Torah - Lust Chizuk 06 Dec 2015 04:03 #270527

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markz wrote:
Hashivalisesonyishecho wrote:

Avraham avinu utilized his natural middah to perform his avoda which was full of mesiras nefesh. For example he was one person bringing amunah into the world against everyone else. This was an uphill battle envolving mesiras nefesh mamash. He harnassed and utilized his best faculties in this avodah so he used his midas hachesed which was a natural strength. Had he tried to do it with midas hagvurah he would have been less effective because that was not his greatest strength. When it was necessary, of course, he worked with that middah too, like by the akaida. But for a person to just kind of sit back and let his nature lead him in the course of no resistance, that's what Reb Yisrael Salanter is referring to. And this has infinite levels, and to the extent that a person pushes himself beyond his natural comfort zone to do mitzvos, so is the chashivus of his avoda. We should all do mitzvos utilizing our strengths but demanding of ourselves to go the extra mile.

avrahamavinu.jpg


Markz,
I had in mind a beautiful Gemara that brings out this point, but was too busy to look it up for a while. The Gemara is in Shabbos 89b.

אמר רבי שמואל בר נחמני אמר רבי יונתן: מאי דכתיב (ישעיהו סג) כי אתה אבינו כי אברהם לא ידענו וישראל לא יכירנו אתה ה׳ אבינו גואלנו מעולם שמך. לעתיד לבא יאמר לו הקדוש ברוך הוא לאברהם: בניך חטאו לי. אמר לפניו: רבונו של עולם ־ ימחו על קדושת שמך. אמר: אימר ליה ליעקב דהוה ליה צער גידול בנים, אפשר דבעי רחמי עלייהו. אמר ליה: בניך חטאו. ־ אמר לפניו: רבונו של עולם, ימחו על קדושת שמך. ־ אמר: לא בסבי טעמא, ולא בדרדקי עצה. אמר לו ליצחק: בניך חטאו לי. ־ אמר לפניו: רבונו של עולם, בני ולא בניך? בשעה שהקדימו לפניך נעשה לנשמע, קראת להם (שמות ד) בני בכורי, עכשיו בני ולא בניך? ועוד, כמה חטאו? כמה שנותיו של אדם ־ שבעים שנה. דל עשרין דלא ענשת עלייהו ־ פשו להו חמשין. דל עשרין וחמשה דלילותא ־ פשו להו עשרין וחמשה. דל תרתי סרי ופלגא, דצלויי ומיכל ודבית הכסא ־ פשו להו תרתי סרי ופלגא. אם אתה סובל את כולם ־ מוטב, ואם לאו ־ פלגא עלי ופלגא עליך. ואם תמצא לומר כולם עלי ־ הא קריבית נפשי קמך. פתחו ואמרו: (כי) אתה אבינו. אמר להם יצחק: עד שאתם מקלסין לי ־ קלסו להקדוש ברוך הוא, ומחוי להו יצחק הקדוש ברוך הוא בעינייהו. מיד נשאו עיניהם למרום ואומרים (ישעיהו סג) אתה ה׳ אבינו גואלנו מעולם שמך.

The Artscroll footnotes quote R' Yaakov Kamenetzky zt"l that both Avrohom and Yaakov had to overcome their natural middos during their lifetime, but Yitzchok did not. In order for Klal Yisroel to merit the final Geulah, we need the zechus of Yitzchok overcoming his middah of gevurah.

As a side note, there are other mefarshim who learn that Yitzchok overcame his middah of Gevurah by having rachmonus on Esav.

Another side note, did you notice that the Gemara ends off ומחוי להו יצחק הקדוש ברוך הוא בעינייהו with their eyes.
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Last Edit: 15 Dec 2015 17:58 by eslaasos.

The Mark of Torah - Lust Chizuk 06 Dec 2015 16:25 #270559

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eslaasos wrote:
avrahamavinu.jpg
...The Artscroll footnotes quote R' Yaakov Kamenetzky zt"l that both Avrohom and Yaakov had to overcome their natural middos during their lifetime, but Yitzchok did not. In order for Klal Yisroel to merit the final Geulah, we need the zechus of Yitzchok overcoming his middah of gevurah.

As a side note, there are other mefarshim who learn that Yitzchok overcame his middah of Gevurah by having rachmonus on Esav...
I was hoping to find the Sefer that explains that point, that the Nisayon of the Avos, was to challenge them to overcome their natural middos.

My Chavrusa, you saved me some research - Thanks!
It's in R' Yaakov Kamenetzky zt"l's sefer על התורה
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Last Edit: 06 Dec 2015 16:27 by Markz.

The Mark of Torah - Lust Chizuk 06 Dec 2015 17:07 #270561

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ODAAT - one day at a time


Here's one nice guy for example - odaat....for six years!

Stuart & wrote:
In Rabbi Frand's Shiur last night, he quoted the Tzror HaMor who quoted a Medrash that says that when the wife of Potifar was seducing Yoseph, he was trying to say no. Finally she was able to convince him to say, "Ok not today, but tomorrow". Yoseph agreed, which ultimately saved him from this test.

This is a powerful lesson for us. When attacked with lust that feels so much stronger than us, we can tell ourselves that we'll give in, just NOT TODAY. Often we'll find that tomorrow we'll feel stronger. If not, we can again tell ourselves, JUST NOT TODAY
guardureyes.com/GUE/GUEList/GUEList19


What was Yosef Hatzadik's tool for success, that saved him from the wife of Potifar?

The answer may be hinted to in the Parsha.

"ויהי כדברה אליו יום יום ולא שמע אליה"
How was it that 'לא שמע אליה'? because 'כדברה אליו יום יום', when it could have said 'כדברה אליו כמה ימים'.
Yosef viewed every day as the only day

This is also an idea we can find in the current yom tov of חנוכה
The basic halacha of menora is to light
ONE CANDLE
each night. To signify that we appreciate each day of rescue from Hashem as though today is the only day

Of course, there's always room for mehadrin, which we must add upon our ODAAT, making today even better

after 5 weeks markz wrote:
The day I get to 90 days wont be my main marker. At that point I'll say העבר אין. What will be tomorrow? Who cares? העתיד עדיין.
My concern is for today... But I give up. I surrender it all to Gd.
Therefore דאגה מנין. Serious
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The Mark of Torah - Lust Chizuk 10 Dec 2015 05:59 #270922

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KiviYVY wrote:
An Addicts Al Hanissim, by YVY

G-d, I don't thank You enough, but at this time of Chanuka I'm given the opportunity to focus on all that I owe as a member of the Jewish people, and as one who has been blessed with Your miracles and continues to be blessed every day. I'm indebted to You for redeeming me from the dreadful life I lived, the emptiness, the loneliness of one held prisoner by a merciless, senseless captor. Thank You for revealing Your infinite power to me - I really needed it; I was and I still remain powerless. You saved me from definite destruction, from sinking lower and lower into my lust. You fought my battles, because I could no longer fight. You did this for our Fathers at this time of year, and I recognize this time of year as one best suited for recognizing that all my success comes from only You.

In the days of Matisyahu and his family, when the threat of the dominant culture was eating away at our deep, long standing, relationship, throwing our people into darkness, forgetting our humble submission to Your will as expressed in the Torah You gave us, driving us away from living according to Your plans, plans we had committed ourselves to, whether we understood them or not. We had this essential humility before we were overtaken by the drives to escape into the self-centered pleasures and beauty of the world around us, to replace Your plans with our fancy. We took charge. We used to crave only You, and we turned to other sources of pleasure, dark and artificial, unfulfilling and selfish.

And You, You never gave up on us. In Your great kindness, Your real feelings of mercy for us, You stood up, revealed your Awesome Wonders when we were entrenched in the narrow quarters of helplessness and isolation, our corrupt design for living. We could no longer fight - now You would fight. We couldn't reverse the damage that was done, but You could. We were weak, we are weak, we came to understand that then. When that became real to us, You quickly subdued the mighty insurmountable forces we had been fighting for years. There were so many battles, we had dug ourselves so deep, but you handed that to us too. We were drawn to so much impurity, buried in so much dirt, soiled, but You showed us we could be pure if we would only let You fight for us. Evil ones, those who were out to destroy us unmercilessly, unforgivingly, disappeared in the face of those who chose Your righteous path, those who submitted, and committed, themselves to working towards the fulfillment of only Your will.

An You thereby made for Yourself a great and holy name in the world. You made it known that miracles are ready for us when we're ready to see them and live with them. You saved Your people, You renewed the deep bond we always had, You brought redemption - ah... the relief I can and do experience today, and every day.

After our relationship was rekindled, Your precious children, recognizing the love their Father in heaven continues to have for them, came back home. They devoted themselves to clean up their side of the street, take actions to remove all resentments and false medications for pains that drew them away from You. They brought purity to Your home, understanding Your home is holy, our relationship with You is intimate and profound, and turning from You is unthinkable. They did not just recognize your love, but they took definite steps to kindle the relationship, to shine the light of their new clarity living in Your presence, in Your home. They established 8 days to focus on Your kindness then, and always, to devote to thanking You, recognizing Your infinite power to continually draw them from the ever present darkness. They take those 8 days with them throughout the year and their lives, never forgetting where they once were and the infinite light they continue to ignite and kindle.
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Last Edit: 10 Dec 2015 06:01 by Markz.

The Mark of Torah - Lust Chizuk 10 Dec 2015 14:08 #270935

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ODAAT
an honest mouse wrote:
CHIZUK FROM CHANUKA:

The miracle of the oil, was that there was only a little bit of untainted, pure oil left - only enough for 1 day, but Hashem made it last for 8 days.

Sometimes, we dont have a lot of strength in us, we feel we can only remain clean for a short while, we dont have it in us for the long haul. If we dedicate our short time clean to Hashem and say, 'this is as much as I can do, please keep me clean', He is surely able to repeat the miracle and give us the ability to remain clean for much longer!
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The Mark of Torah - Lust Chizuk 10 Dec 2015 20:23 #270990

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markz wrote:
[
[size=4]This Gemara is astounding!
If my understanding is correct, the heilige Gemara that I love so dearly, is teaching a profound lesson - that Gemara Tavlin is not the solution to all Yetzer Hara's, even if you are the Godol hador. [/size]


Well I was just wonderin' (throwin' in my two cents scents sense), does toirah tavlin mean limud hatoirah or following what the toirah says?
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The Mark of Torah - Lust Chizuk 10 Dec 2015 20:32 #270991

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The Mark of Torah - Lust Chizuk 11 Dec 2015 14:10 #271042

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Pintele Yid wrote:
bardichev wrote on 18 Jun 2009 19:37:

reb pintele
can you please expound on the idea of
anee hashem hashochen ..bsoch tumasam..

It will be a great chizzuk
It was also never really discussed on the forum(to my knowledge)

it dovetails the words you just posted!


Holy Bardichev,

I don't remmember learning specifically on the subject but in the spirit of the Gemorah Shabbos Kuf Yud Ches Amud Bais where Reb Yosi states "In my days I never transgressed the words of my friends. I know that I am not a kohen, but if my friends asked me to go up and Duchen (say the priestly blessings), I will go" Bezres Hashem here are my thoughts:

1. It says in the Tanya in Likutai Amurim Perek Bais, our Neshamos are a Chelek Elokai Mema'al Mamish, meaning we are totally connected with Hashem. Therefore, from a practical standpoint, Hakodosh Baruch Hu made us inseparable with him under all circumstances - even when we are steeped in Tumah. To add something that is very relevant to us, since Hashem is the only "Ani",the less we feel our "Ani" and give over ourselves to his mercy, the more he will be shochain Bisochainu - helping us with our struggles. This reminds me of a story I heard from my Tanya Rebbi. There was a Talmud Chacham recluse who was also a Baal Gaava that went to visit (I think) the Baal Shem Tov. As he was walking into his study, he heard the Baal Shem Tov say, Im Yisaser Ish Bmistarim V'ani - Lo Yireno Nium Hashem. The poshut pshat of this posik means that "if someone hides in hidden places does he not think that Hashem will see him? The Baal Shem Tov changed the meaning to "If someone hides and he is a Baal Gaava, (Ani), then Hashem will not see him. The Talmd Chacham got the message and worked on himself and came back 3 years later. As he was walking into the study the Baal Shem Tov said "Im Yisaser Ish Bmistarim V'ani Lo - Yireno Nium Hashem. This means that if a person nullifies himself before Hashem, then it will result that the countenance of Hashem will shine upon him.

2. I don't remmember if he quoted this posuk but Horav Moshe Wolfson said that the Yom Tov of Chanukah symbolizes
the posuk of Hashochen ...Bsoch Tumasam. Consider this, in Torah literature, "light" symbolizes Kedusha and "dark" symolizes Tumah. "Right" symbolizes Kedusha and "left" symbolizes Tumah. Higher than 10 Tefachim from the ground Symbolizes Kedusha and lower then 10 Tefachim symolizes Tumah. The Reshus Hayachid symbolizes Kedusha and the Reshus Horabim Symbolizes Tumah. (Taking a line from Holy Barditchiv, if you are driving then pull over). Chanukah is the letters Kohen Ches, meaning every yid is a Kohen for eight days. From the aformentioned, we learn that we become Kohanim and light the menorah (ideally) outside our houses in the reshus harabim, on the left side, under 10 tefachim, during the longest nights of the year during Chodesh Teves. During Chanukah, Hashem visits us in the depths of our Tumah and helps light the fire in our hearts.

3. We are Hashem's children. We might be in golus and sometimes doing all the wrong things, but Hashem our tatte in himel will never forsake us no matter how much we dirty ourselves. Because a normal father, even if he sends his son away from him as a result of his transgressions, will always be there looking after him. How much more so our tatte bechina of Havaya, will always be there for us.

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The Mark of Torah - Lust Chizuk 13 Dec 2015 19:23 #271161

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battleworn wrote:
I want to address two more issues.

1) Any approach that you take is going to have to involve a serious investment. (Including time, emotional energy etc.) The only way one would invest so heavily, is if he feels that his situation is desperate enough to warrant such an investment.

So one may feel, that speaking about the great nachas ru'ach that your efforts give Hashem etc., can be harmful to the addict - making him feel that it's okay that he's addicted and he doesn't need to do anything major about it.

Here again I feel very strongly that balance is in order. Every addict must know (most people that come here know this already) that if he doesn't take very serious action, the addiction is liable to totally destroy his life in this world and the next. Being so completely involved in taivoh, is by far the greatest threat to any Jew. Of-course we can go on about this all day and not get to the end of it.

But it's also very important to know that the situation that you find yourself in, is not c'v a mistake or a stroke of bad luck. You must know that Hashem put you there for a reason. Just like a commando soldier that is secretly working within enemy territory; although your situation is extremely dangerous, at the same time it helps to know that if Hashem sent you there, it means He believes in you! [The overwhelming majority of strugglers have a huge self-image problem and it is [b]crucial [/b] for them to know what Hashem really thinks of them.]

And if you care enough to DO something about it, then you ought to know what your efforts mean to Hashem. You must know that your situation is only as desperate as you let it be. Because if you take action, you will succeed.

And of-course you also need to know that if c'v you find yourself in a situation that is impossible for you, then every bif of effort and every bit of not falling (even if one fell partially) is a tremendous accomplishment. Not only does it give a great nachas ruach to Hashem, but it also merits you more siyata diShmaya in the future and brings you a step closer to holiness.

2) Some people are under the impression that the Torah approach is that the battle must be fought with "white-knuckling". This is as far from the truth as you can get. We were always taught "bitachbula taaseh milchama" don't fight the y'h head on. That's why we must avoid temptation as much as we can.

Furthermore, when dealing with lust-addiction, it's blatantly obvious that you can't stop while being connected to taivoh - which is synonymous with being distant from Hashem. You need to make an about face and direct your life towards Hashem instead of away from Him.

Personally I'm sure that if one let's himself remain the same old baal-taivoh that he was and just tries to use brute-force to stop himself from sinning, it won't work! At least that was my experience.

But whatever situation you find yourself in, you always have to do what you can. That might mean turning your head away each time it turns itself towards pritzus even if you have to do it a thousand times in a row. It might mean stopping yourself even after you let loose. It might mean forcing yourself to think when your taivoh is not letting you.

It's important to know that every effort that you put in -whether it's white knuckling or otherwise- is a tremendous accomplishment and a tremendous investment.
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The Mark of Torah - Lust Chizuk 13 Dec 2015 20:09 #271167

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abe2710 wrote:
I have been hearing a lot about "surrendering out lust to god" or something like that. i would like to learn what this means can anyone offer me some direction where to go?
thank you in advance.
I have also seen some people say things like "god this lust is too strong for me please take it away" this is something i dont understand if Hashem gives us a problem like this surly He wants us to become better people through it not that we should just beg Him to take it away that would be a little pointless?

skeptical wrote:
#12: Asking Hashem to take it away -
A few days ago, I was having a really tough time controlling my thoughts. Out of desperation, I thought to myself, "There are guys on GYE who say that they just ask Hashem to 'take away the lust,' and they say that it works. Why not give it a shot?"
I didn't verbalize it, there were people around, I just thought it: Hashem, I'm having a difficult time with these thoughts. Please take them away from me.
Poof! They disappeared immediately.
Why does this work?
I think the answer is that when we're asking Hashem to help us through it, we are forcing ourselves to think about Him, even if it's on the most basic level. Intrinsically we know that these desires are all about making ourselves feel good, throwing Hashem and all other victims to the sidelines. If I believe in Hashem enough to ask Him to help me through a hard time, I'm putting Him at the center of it all and then there's no room for entertaining such thoughts and desires.
May we all have the strength to keep Hashem at the center of our lives and ask Him for help when we need it.

Im an absolute am ha'aretz in 12 steps, but I promise you this works. Where did I learn this idea of Asking Hashem to take it away? From the guru - cordnoy. Because I listened in to his calls

In my little mind - the reason why it works is the following
Am I supposed to jump into the ring with a boxer that is more powerful than me? If I have a different way to defeat him I will. Gd NEVER wants us to fight the YH if we have another way out.
That is how I understand how surrender works, and is based on the גמרא that says '...אלמלא הקב"ה עוזרו', which teaches us that we are unable to fight the YH.
תורה תבלין too is a great bullet against the YH only when done correctly, but even that is never a direct attack approach against the YH.
Yosef could have fought with אשת פוטיפרע. Why did he run out? Because that is what Gd wants
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Last Edit: 13 Dec 2015 22:40 by Markz.

The Mark of Torah - Lust Chizuk 14 Dec 2015 16:27 #271245

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אל תדין את חברך עד שתגיע למקומו
Why doesn't it say אל תחייב את חברך?
Because the Mishna may be conveying a different message

Do Not Offer Advice: Not against and neither to benefit your friend. Until you have been in his shoes. Therefore for example when someone has issues with the 12 steps, I'll usually step aside and let someone else chime in, since I have zero experience in that

OFFER ADVICE: If you have managed to overcome your struggle to the point of passing the 100 day mark, that's a good time to advise based on your experience.

Before then try to focus on your own 18 Wheeler recovery and share that with the chevra.
Giving an opinion or a generalized השקפה without some sort of sobriety, Is like a Toys4U Employer advising how to tune up my truck. And it confuses newcomers

THE BEST ADVICE: The greatest / advice are the ones where we share our personal story - that is the most powerful advice I've found on the forum

Another note - I heard from one of the great moderators "us addicts don't like to be told what to do". This is an important dogma to keep in mind - I'm just sayin'

This is not directed at anyone specific, because after all אל תדין את חברך עד שתגיע למקומו

What I wrote isn't Toras Moshe. Btw the Torah and Chizuk forum isn't open to debate, which is one reason why I wasn't comfortable making this chizuk thread there...
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➣ The Mark of Torah - Lust Chizuk

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Last Edit: 14 Dec 2015 18:26 by Markz.

The Mark of Torah - Lust Chizuk 15 Dec 2015 13:39 #271367

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an honest mouse wrote:
PARSHAS VAYIGASH

'kamoh yemei sh'nei chayecho' Pharoh asked Yaakov avinu - how many are the days of the years of your life. Rav shimshon raphoel hirsch says that pharoh understood the importance of each individual day. He was therefore asking yaakov, how have you utilised each day? how many days really counted, to which yaakov, in his anivus answered, little and nothing compared to my forefathers. ( i know this doesnt fit with the chazal about yaakov losing 33 years of his life coz he shouldnt have complained but rav sr'h knew a lot more than i do!).

we can apply that here. Each day counts, that means if i messed up yesterday - so what? today is a new day and conversely if yesterday was great, that doesnt mean today is gonna be good as well - in other words, each day has its own unique potential and thats the way we should live life as well as recovery - ONE DAY AT A TIME!!
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The Mark of Torah - Lust Chizuk 16 Dec 2015 01:18 #271468

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BenTorah.BaalHabayis wrote:
markz wrote:
[b]

4) THE TRUCKING HIGHWAY - MILE TWO from 90 days till today
a) I say about myself "Other guys have their struggle - mine isn't such a tough one. G-d with his shliach Gye have helped me considerably. My life is looking up!!"
b) My view about others "Most people in the world probably do NOT lust, and I can believe that, because ever since I joined gye, I can often stand in the shoes of the people in the world - talking to a woman without fantasizing. My sobriety proved to me - that my view about others when I was on the wrong road was dead w r o n g"


According to this perspective what is then the source of our addiction? Why are some people addicted and others not? These people, who you assume can talk to a woman without fantasizing, I can't imagine the 12 steps just came naturally to them. So what's their secret?

Unless you know otherwise I would actually disagree with your premise. Chaza"l say that "Gezel v'Arayos nafsho shel odom mechamdton" (translated: lust for money and sex are innate to the human soul). That seems to imply that everyone has a "chimud" for arayos. I think this is called "lust", no?
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The Mark of Torah - Lust Chizuk 16 Dec 2015 01:23 #271469

Okay Markz, I'm looking at your "lust chizuk" thread. I really am interested in understanding this issue, because I still am under the impression that most people struggle with some degree of lust even it's not in the form of porn and related.
Feel free to email me at BenTorah.BaalHabayis@gmail.com

1 day may be too long for me, but I take it OWAAT = One wave at a time, cause the lust comes and goes like a wave which rises and crashes.

The Mark of Torah - Lust Chizuk 16 Dec 2015 02:03 #271472

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My friend BTBH

1) Off the Cuff I'll, say this
And Please keep this #1 on the top of the list. E.T.G.T = Enough Theory Get Trucking

I like to spend time either in Torah or in recovery
:pinch: Warning: Spoiler!

If we can do a little of both, why not?

2) Your 1st Paragraph
You wrote:
Why are some people addicted and others not?

See the Chazal you quoted. Now tell me - Why do some people steal and some not?
Your question is bigger than me. There's probably much information on this website to resolve it

2) Your 2nd Paragraph
You wrote:
Chaza"l say that "Gezel v'Arayos nafsho shel odom mechamdton". That seems to imply that everyone has a "chimud" for arayos. I think this is called "lust", no?

I do want to shlogg op your question, with a question
From the statement of Chazal it also "seems to imply that everyone has a "chimud" for" gezel. Did you lust to steal today? (Do not answer)

It's apparent from that Shtikel Chazal, that actually Chemda does NOT infer lust in the sense of fantasizing in every 'woman' situation

This Chazal may be explained by one of Dov's drashos expounding on the Chazal (Rubam Begezel Miutam Ba'arayos) found HERE, or it may make things more shverrr

Oy!! I may have added more confusion to your question, as your kushya is a shtarke one, now let the fun begin!
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