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The Mark of Torah - Lust Chizuk
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Im Paga be’cha menuval zeh, mushchei'hu le- BEIS HAMEDRASH! This board is for divrei Torah relating to our struggle with the Yetzer Hara, from the entire spectrum of Tanach, Chazal, Mussar and Chassidus. On this board there will be no posts about personal struggles and no debates. Only TORAH CHIZUK.

TOPIC: The Mark of Torah - Lust Chizuk 69422 Views

The Mark of Torah - Lust Chizuk 08 May 2016 01:44 #287052

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Dov wrote on 14 Sep 2011 23:00:
Who says that shmiras eynayim is the key? Ok, it's necessary, yeah, and it is one of the only ways to actually walk the walk and not just talk the talk....and there are many ways to do that, as well.

But to me it seems poshut that the problem is lusting, not shmiras eynayim.

I know what it is like to go nuts over a perfect-looking woman that walks by. I know what seeing porn does to me and how it makes my entire mind change into a sick one, where porn and sex seem truly to be in my very best, bets interest - and Hashem seems awfully crazy to suggest (demand) otherwise.

I know all that from the inside, like you.

And yet it still boils down to lust. If I am wanting it, wishing for it, and often ready to fantasize over it, then I am going to flop practically whenever I see a triggering thing, as you describe. If I am still lusting, then I do not truly believe that orgasm (and sex) is optional. I believe I deserve it, that it is natural, and that I must do it. That it is ultimately my right, as a man with hormones and the right body parts.

If there is not a backdrop of readiness produced by lust, then what else praytell is the answer to your riddle?

So shmiras einayim is a great tool - to help us live without lusting. We are dry drunks if we are still lusting. And what you describe sounds to me just like that. Lust and fantasy alive and well, behind a scenery filled with shmiras einayim and sincerely good, decent behavior. In the end, it will not work.

The tachlis of my shiras einayim needs to be only to help me live real life today and that means free of the tyranny of lust today, and not chas veshilom as an end in and of itself: "I am shomer my eyes!" Big deal. Between the lines:"But I still see many women as sweet (witheld) sex candy; that their greatest value is in being 'hot';  that their body parts are above all, pleasure sources; and the temptations are crawling all over me, nebach." No. This is not going to work, and will not allow simcha even when it does work for a while. Many here and elsewhere seem to feel like "guarding your eyes" is what it is all about. Gevalt, gevalt. Lo sereid b'ni imochem.
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Last Edit: 29 Aug 2016 23:18 by Markz.

The Mark of Torah - Lust Chizuk 08 May 2016 04:43 #287099

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Mark, thanks for the quote.

I had a similar thought last week, when I was experimenting with shmiras eynayim when shopping. I came to the conclusion that shmiras eynayim does not take place in your eyes. The eyes are not that easily controlled; if they are pointed at an object, they will robotically relay the visual to your brain. The real shmiras eynayim seems to take place in your mind, where you choose what to focus on, although I need to think about it (or practice it) some more to understand it better.

Do you think we should change the name from GYE to GYM?
 
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The Mark of Torah - Lust Chizuk 08 May 2016 04:56 #287102

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עיין רש"י סוף פרשת שלח פרק טו פסוק לט ד"ה  ולא תתורו
והקושיא מובן מאיליו שבפסוק כתוב "לב" קודם ל"עין" אבל בסדר הדברים העין רואה ורק אז הלב חומד
ועיין ספר תפארת שמשון שפירש כעין יסוד הנ"ל - שבא ללמד שגם ראיית העין תלוי בלב 
Have a corny day ... and if you do have other plans, change 'em!!
peloni_almoni@hotmail.com

None of us has it all together, but together, we have it all.

we always put our sobriety before our ego -
מוטב שאקרא שוטה כל ימי ואל אהיה רשע שעה אחת לפני המקום

לפעולות אדם בדבר שפתיך אני שמרתי אורחות פריץ. תמוך אשורי במעגלותיך בל נמוטו פעמי. תהלים יז
__________________________________________________________
LINKS:
- SOLUTIONS: WHERE DO I FIT IN TO GYE
- DOWNLOAD GYE HANDBOOK & READ AT LEAST TWICE
- OVERDOSE OF DOV: READING MATERIAL TO KEEP ME SANE
- THE BEST THREAD ON THE FORUM; READ, POST, AND HAVE A GREAT TIME
 

The Mark of Torah - Lust Chizuk 08 May 2016 05:01 #287103

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peloni almoni wrote on 08 May 2016 04:56:
עיין רש"י סוף פרשת שלח פרק טו פסוק לט ד"ה  ולא תתורו
והקושיא מובן מאיליו שבפסוק כתוב "לב" קודם ל"עין" אבל בסדר הדברים העין רואה ורק אז הלב חומד
ועיין ספר תפארת שמשון שפירש כעין יסוד הנ"ל - שבא ללמד שגם ראיית העין תלוי בלב 

ובמקום אחר
כתבתי טעם אחר לזה
Have a corny day ... and if you do have other plans, change 'em!!
peloni_almoni@hotmail.com

None of us has it all together, but together, we have it all.

we always put our sobriety before our ego -
מוטב שאקרא שוטה כל ימי ואל אהיה רשע שעה אחת לפני המקום

לפעולות אדם בדבר שפתיך אני שמרתי אורחות פריץ. תמוך אשורי במעגלותיך בל נמוטו פעמי. תהלים יז
__________________________________________________________
LINKS:
- SOLUTIONS: WHERE DO I FIT IN TO GYE
- DOWNLOAD GYE HANDBOOK & READ AT LEAST TWICE
- OVERDOSE OF DOV: READING MATERIAL TO KEEP ME SANE
- THE BEST THREAD ON THE FORUM; READ, POST, AND HAVE A GREAT TIME
 
Last Edit: 08 May 2016 05:02 by peloni almoni.

The Mark of Torah - Lust Chizuk 08 May 2016 05:15 #287105

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It's not only במקום אחר
Its on this thread

I found this other post for me to be the most conclusive
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Last Edit: 08 May 2016 05:24 by Markz.

The Mark of Torah - Lust Chizuk 08 May 2016 06:20 #287110

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A moment for theoretical Torah..

I heard a medresh once (either the medresh actually says this or this was the p'shat I heard, not sure which) about how Avraham had reached a level where he had complete control over his eyes and ears - the senses that are beyond our control, because we see whatever is in view and hear whatever is within earshot, whether we want to or not.  Meaning that he was able to "not see (or hear)" things that were in front of him if they were inappropriate for him.  I found this fascinating 

The Mark of Torah - Lust Chizuk 08 May 2016 14:30 #287138

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To fight or Not to fight - That is the question:

Some captive women were redeemed and brought to Neharda'a. They were kept in the attic of Rav Amram the Chasid; the ladder was removed.

A beam of light reflected from one of the women. Rav Amram was seized with lust. He moved the ladder to ascend (normally, 10 people are needed to move it). As he was halfway up, he screamed 'there is a fire in Rav Amram's house!' (Kiddushin 81)

Rav Amram intended to teach his students with this, that debates and confrontation against the YH are not recommended in times of need, rather other tools should be used (Rada'l), e.g. calling a fellow GYE or Group call

:pinch: Warning: Spoiler!
*******************************************

Parshas Achrei - GYE Wrote:

Dear MosheF,

Please read the Ohr Hachayim Hakadosh on this page. It sure sounds to me like he's talking about lust addiction! He directly addresses the complete powerlessness that a person who is caught up in lust will experience. He suggests that the only way to succeed in this area is by completely avoiding visual and mental stimulation. (If the Ohr Hachayim had lived today where this solution is close to impossible - and where the entire world's sewage is available with the click of a mouse, who knows - he may have come up with a 12-Step program! :-).

But listen to this: The Ohr Hachayim also touches upon the core of the 12-Steps in this very piece. He writes that for those who are already caught up in lust (read: addicts) they cannot do it on their own, and that ONLY Hashem can ultimately save them from this powerful Yetzer Hara.

TRANSLATION IS INCLUDED HERE

:pinch: Warning: Spoiler!



Rabbi Avraham J. Twerski wrote: If one can, it is a segula to read this section at the kever and ask that in his zechus Hashem should help
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Last Edit: 08 May 2016 14:32 by Markz.

The Mark of Torah - Lust Chizuk 16 May 2016 16:37 #287975

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The Ohr Hachaim Hakodosh on the posuk of Kedoshim Tihyu writes that the nature of lust (for every joe shmoe, not just an addict) is that it is impossible to fight. The only possibility (and achrayos) you have is to prevent it from entering your mind in the first place.

בחינת תאוה הקבועה בטבע אינושי והיא תאוה השולטת על הרצון...אין יכולת באדם לשלוט עלי'ה אלא בגדר הריחוק בבחינת החושב
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The Mark of Torah - Lust Chizuk 31 May 2016 15:09 #289331

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thanks613 wrote on 08 May 2016 06:20:
A moment for theoretical Torah..

I heard a medresh once (either the medresh actually says this or this was the p'shat I heard, not sure which) about how Avraham had reached a level where he had complete control over his eyes and ears - the senses that are beyond our control, because we see whatever is in view and hear whatever is within earshot, whether we want to or not.  Meaning that he was able to "not see (or hear)" things that were in front of him if they were inappropriate for him.  I found this fascinating 

Isn't that what Rashi says in Parshas Lech Lecha on the words V'agadla shemecha?

The Mark of Torah - Lust Chizuk 31 May 2016 15:55 #289334

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eslaasos wrote on 28 Apr 2016 18:38:
I heard a fascinating idea b'shem the Noam Megadim. If anyone can provide the source so I can see the original, I would really appreciate it.
If a temptation entices you, and you overcome it, it is not vanquished; it will come back and tempt you again. This I had heard many times before. The chiddush I now heard is that after overcoming it 5 times, it will keep coming back but when you overcome it again, it will be converted into a cheshek for kedusha.

Gemara Meseches Sukkah:

Yitzro shel adam misgabar alav b'chol yom......
......V'Hashem yeshalmenu lach.
Rashi explains: Sheyehei shaleim yitzrach imach, v'lo yaasiacha lachto vl'aavod min haolam.

The Mark of Torah - Lust Chizuk 01 Jun 2016 03:51 #289394

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A moment for theoretical Torah..



I heard a medresh once (either the medresh actually says this or this was the p'shat I heard, not sure which) about how Avraham had reached a level where he had complete control over his eyes and ears - the senses that are beyond our control, because we see whatever is in view and hear whatever is within earshot, whether we want to or not.  Meaning that he was able to "not see (or hear)" things that were in front of him if they were inappropriate for him.  I found this fascinating 
Isn't that what Rashi says in Parshas Lech Lecha on the words V'agadla shemecha?


No, I don't see that there at all.

The Mark of Torah - Lust Chizuk 01 Jun 2016 07:20 #289403

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כתיב אברם וכתיב אברהם, בתחלה המליכו הקב"ה על מאתים וארבעים ושלשה אברים, ולבסוף המליכו על מאתים וארבעים ושמונה אברים, אלו הן, שתי עינים ושתי אזנים וראש הגויי'
נדרים לב ב

The Mark of Torah - Lust Chizuk 02 Jun 2016 03:47 #289452

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gyeuser444 wrote:
כתיב אברם וכתיב אברהם, בתחלה המליכו הקב"ה על מאתים וארבעים ושלשה אברים, ולבסוף המליכו על מאתים וארבעים ושמונה אברים, אלו הן, שתי עינים ושתי אזנים וראש הגויי'
נדרים לב ב

Therefore genetically we have the tools in our hands to cut inapropriate (phone / music) sex from our lives, and use our ears to be there for our spouse / friend and listen to words of wisdom from (our forefather, and now our Captain) Avrom

Are we availing ourselves of the tools?

This is the place!!!
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The Mark of Torah - Lust Chizuk 09 Jun 2016 19:34 #289945

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Possibly we have these tools...

Another P'shat might be that Hashem first gave Avraham the human tools over all the other faculties, and then when he had shown who he really wanted to be and surrendered himself to Hashem completely, then he was given superhuman tools, and Hashem cut out all the unnecessaries.  

Eilu V'Eilu

The Mark of Torah - Lust Chizuk 10 Jul 2016 18:45 #291680

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the.guard wrote:

I want to reveal to you all one of the deepest secrets to winning this battle:

The moment a person decides that no matter how much it hurts or how bitter it is - he will do it anyway for Hashem's sake no matter what, and he is willing to suffer whatever pain it takes; an amazing thing happens then: It actually becomes EASY and SWEET!

This is the secret to true success in any spiritual feat, including Torah. Like it says: Zos Hatorah - Adam Ki Yamus Ba'Ohel. As soon as a person accepts upon himself the yoke of Torah to the point where he is ready and willing to suffer for it to the point of death - ZOS HATORAH; that is the Torah, and then he is Zoche to feel the true sweetness of Torah that by far exceeds any physical pleasure. But with Torah it is understandably harder to achieve this high madrega because it requires lots of doing and learning, such as getting up before dawn, going to sleep late, eating little and toiling day and night in Torah. This is indeed hard and requires a huge leap of faith before it starts to get truly sweet.

But when it comes to our struggle with this addiction, it is much easier. We don't have to do ANYTHING. We just have to STOP doing the bad things and accept upon ourselves that even if we feel like we are going to DIE if we don't give in, even if we feel such a deep void and depression that everything we do feels like eating "dirt" - still, we will not give in no matter what and we accept the challenge of this pain with JOY for Hashem's sake, then - and ONLY then - are we Zoche to feel the true sweetness and freedom from the Menuval once and for all forever!!

So take that leap of faith today, and accept upon yourself to succeed no matter how hard it is, and suddenly you will see that it gets easy and feels truly SWEET!

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Last Edit: 10 Jul 2016 18:45 by Markz.
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