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The Mark of Torah - Lust Chizuk
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Im Paga be’cha menuval zeh, mushchei'hu le- BEIS HAMEDRASH! This board is for divrei Torah relating to our struggle with the Yetzer Hara, from the entire spectrum of Tanach, Chazal, Mussar and Chassidus. On this board there will be no posts about personal struggles and no debates. Only TORAH CHIZUK.

TOPIC: The Mark of Torah - Lust Chizuk 68752 Views

The Mark of Torah - Lust Chizuk 06 Jan 2016 00:42 #273465

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ontheedgeman wrote:
I have heard that in the Zohar, it is said that the sin of wasted seed is the worst sin for which no recovery is possible.  And further that relations with non-Jews attaches to us even in Olam Haba. 

Not to say there aren't other factors, but these two things are like dark clouds hovering over my head.  What are the defenses against these charges?


Dov wrote:
OK, so lets say that you did understand the Zohar correctly. Now what? Does the Zohar mean that Hashem now hates you? Doe sit mean that you have no more meaning to Him? That you have no beauty and goodness in your life?

Sha"s says clearly that any person who embarrassess another in public has no part in Olam Haba. So if you once did that, and many of us certainly have, then what? What do you do about it? Do you kill youself emotionally by giving up everafter on living a deep, happy, and fulfilling beautiful life as Hashem's favorite 'ontheedgeman'-guy? Bishvili nivra Olam does not apply to you any more? Rubbish. Just plain rubbish.

It's a stain, period.

Neeeext! (or as Reb bards would put it: KEEP ON TRUCKING!)

I am serious. This is avodas Hashem we are talking about. It is your real life, not a religiously-contrived game of who is a "rasha" or "tzaddik", or who is going to gehinom or not going. And it needs to last about 80 or 90 years. Though we all suffer from it, the truth is that there is no real place for self-pity in this life. It is destructive and ruins us. It needs to be rejected as an option once we wake up. I frequently have to reject it, so I may know just how you feel...

If you are headed to gehinnom or can't do Teshuvah, then what? The way I see it, now you can serve Hashem even though you will not get a big fat honor-prize from Him for it...for after all, you have this stain on you. Nu. So you can now do what He wants for Him, instead of just for you and your ticker-tape parade in Gan Eden. We all envision something like that, you know...a ticker-tape parade. "Make way and open the gates for the tzaddik Shomer Emunim!"

Read the RMB"N's iggeres. 2/3 of the way down. So? Now you finally have a way to really see others as having an advantage over you, instead of having to manufacture one. This is nothing new. If you read the letters of many great tzaddikim and many simple Yidden from the past you will see this theme: "b'avonosai harabim asher otzmu v'robu misa'aros roshi...etc." Well, now you can say that and really mean it.

And exactly what is so bad about that? I think it is a fine place to start out. See where He takes you from there. He is very good at rearranging things and working them out so life works better, you know. He does that for me and lots of other people I know and does a fine job.

I know most of the good people around here are uncomfortable with anything but a touchy-feely, 'feel-good' kind of yiddishkeit. But I don't need to start with that. I have a G-d who loves me even if I would be a rosha c"v, and certainly even though I'd be right on my knees in that bathroom with a magazine open on the floor and 'getting the old shameful job done'. Hey, He was right there, too, with me, no? And He brought me here nonetheless! Isn't that love?

And that's enough for me to be in allegiance to Him for the rest of my life. Ashirah laShem bchayay, azamroh leiloay b'odi, ye'erav olov sichi - anochi esmach baShem!!

PS. I am not suggesting that you must do this. I am only offerring a way out for you - or rather, a way through (durch, in yiddish, I believe). Even your worst fears about this stuff can be a vehicle for you to live a better life.




I am not trying to minimize the cheit of sex with yourself (masturbation). The Zohar and Chaza"l say the truth, of course. Still, it is no reason for a Jew to give up on a great life and lose faith in Hashem's abounding love for him/her. And how can it always be halachically considered yehoreg v'al ya'avor - the case in the gemorah was surely a hora'as sho'oh for that person based on the circumstances.

But all this is not necessarily true for addicts. I know a beautiful chassidishe yid with about 20 years sobriety from lust whose acting out included prostitutes, etc., who says to his G-d every day, "Teiereh Tatteh, if I am going to act out today, then please, please take me first."

Many of us - whether sex and lust addicts or alcoholics, or whatever-aholics, have very low bottoms. Life is definitely not worth living as an acting out addict. So we truly prefer death to such a life. That is how precious our sobriety is to many of us.

This is not a madreiga, but a choice based on enlightened self-interest, plain and simple. We are so sick, that sobriety is more precious than anything else, period.

I guess that is the pnimius of "yehoreig v'al ya'avor", no? Is a Jew to die rather than do the big three because Hashem says so - or because he needs to die rather than do such things? I think it is the latter....though to those I feel are 'olam-haba-seeking goodie-goodies', the former is obviously their aspiration.

Nu. To each his own.

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The Mark of Torah - Lust Chizuk 07 Jan 2016 17:38 #273632

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ZemirosShabbos wrote:
Parshas Vaera

וידבר אלקים אל משה ויאמר אליו אני ה' וגו

Why does it say 'vayomer alov', it seems repetitious, and why does it say 'vayedaber' and then 'vayomer', why the change of terminology?

(i am quoting the lashon here verbatim)
עיקר השראת השכינה הוא על בחינת נשברי לב, כמאמר הכתוב את מי אשכון ואת דכא ושפל רוח וגו', היינו על בחינת בעלי תשובה, כי כשאדם חוטא ועל ידי זה נשבר לבו בקרבו ושב בתשובה שלמה, הוא ממשיך על עצמו אור התשובה, ובחינה זו גדול מאוד בעיני השם
. עכ"ל
The primary dwelling of the Shechinah is on people who have broken hearts, the level of baalei teshuvah. After a person does an aveirah and his heart is broken and he does true teshuvah he draws upon himself the light of teshuvah. This is very precious and dear in the eyes of Hashem.

The pasuk starts off וידבר - לשון קשה, when Hashem rebuked Moshe for saying למה הרעותה , Moshe's heart broke and he immediately did teshuvah. Hashem then spoke to him with a tender tone, ויאמר - לשון רכה


Bas Ayin

"Moshe's heart broke and he immediately did teshuvah"

Dov has also mentioned the benefit of upsetness due to a fall, that can be impetus to take a baby step to recovery

When someone c"v has a fall, Gd implanted a natural feeling to be down and upset because of it. It's wrong to negate that feeling
And when someone shared his fall with us, it's not the best advice to say
"Don't feel bad..."
He should yes feel bad!

Same like nichum aveilim. A fall is a loss - 100%. But it's hurtful to the avel for a guy to come in and belittle his loss, and this guy thinks he a big tzaddik cos he figured how to comfort...
Nichum aveilim is to help him come to terms with his loss

If someone has a fall, true consolation = 99% empathy + 1% chizuk, a little more or a little less

May we all share אור התשובה together
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The Mark of Torah - Lust Chizuk 09 Jan 2016 23:32 #273746

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image_2016-01-09.jpeg
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The Mark of Torah - Lust Chizuk 10 Jan 2016 02:00 #273780

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selfishness feeds lust which feeds selfishness... ... - an endless circle

Which is why the common שורש of גאוה and תאוה is אוה
They are intertwined one another
Rabbi A Schorr שליטא


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You can start from minute 11, and if you like gematria there are some pearls to be found

Thanks to Torahanytime
Forgive me for lowering the sound quality to be able to upload
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Last Edit: 11 Jan 2016 14:11 by Markz.

The Mark of Torah - Lust Chizuk 12 Jan 2016 18:02 #274077

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Until the day 'Cordnoy quotes' is threaded I feel it's important to quote this great one here, since not everyone has access to the Mikva
cordnoy wrote:
The reason one needs a Rav is because there are always variables that need to be addressed specifically. There very possibly will be a different set of rules for an addict. I have written on GYE many times that i don't believe halachah should be bantered around at all, on any thread.

Regardin' the hashkafah of intimacy, one should get sober first before addressin'.

b'hatzlachah
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The Mark of Torah - Lust Chizuk 15 Jan 2016 13:02 #274415

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markz wrote:
Until the day 'Cordnoy quotes' is threaded I feel it's important to quote this great one here, since not everyone has access to the Mikva
cordnoy wrote:
The reason one needs a Rav is because there are always variables that need to be addressed specifically. There very possibly will be a different set of rules for an addict. I have written on GYE many times that i don't believe halachah should be bantered around at all, on any thread.

Regardin' the hashkafah of intimacy, one should get sober first before addressin'.

b'hatzlachah


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The Mark of Torah - Lust Chizuk 15 Jan 2016 14:49 #274426

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Question for the weekend - why does mezonos and z'nus have the same shoresh?
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The Mark of Torah - Lust Chizuk 15 Jan 2016 16:28 #274452

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Posting on behalf of Stillgoing -

Maybe mezonos, which means sustenance, can be missused by overeating. Personally i find that when indulging in lust, i also do the same with food.When i was younger my body shrugged it off. Now im starting to feel the weight and it's calling attention to me, that eating (mezonos) and lusting (z'nos) often follow each other - at least for me.
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Last Edit: 15 Jan 2016 16:37 by eslaasos.

The Mark of Torah - Lust Chizuk 15 Jan 2016 16:43 #274453

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eslaasos wrote:
Question for the weekend - why does mezonos and z'nus have the same shoresh?


וַיַּעֲזֹ֣ב כָּל-אֲשֶׁר-לוֹ֮ בְּיַד-יוֹסֵף֒ וְלֹא-יָדַ֤ע אִתּוֹ֙ מְא֔וּמָה כִּ֥י אִם-הַלֶּ֖חֶם אֲשֶׁר-ה֣וּא אוֹכֵ֑ל

בעה'ט: כי אם הלחם אשר הוא אוכל. בגימטריא היא אשתו:

כלי יקר: כי אם הלחם אשר הוא אוכל.פירש רש"י היא אשתו, כמ"ש ולא חשך ממני מאומה כי אם אותך באשר את אשתו, וקרא לאשתו בכנוי לחם כי כמו שהלחם משביע לכל חי יותר מן כל דבר הזן, כך בעילות של היתר משביעים אותו אבר, לאפוקי בעילות של איסור אינן משביעים, כמרז"ל (סוכה נב:) אבר קטן משביעו רעב וארז"ל (סנהדרין עה.)שניטל טעם ביאה וניתן לעוברי עבירה, כי אין יצרו תוקפו כי אם בדבר איסור, ולכך אמרו רז"ל (סוטה ד:) כל הבא על אשה זונה לסוף מבקש ככר לחם ואינו מוצא שנאמר (משלי ו.כו) כי בעד אשה זונה עד ככר לחם, וענשו מדה כנגד מדה לפי שעזב את אשתו שנקרא לחם ודבק בזונה שאינה לחמו על כן יחסר לחמו. ויש אומרים, לחם זה הוא לחם ממש, כי תועבה למצרים לאכול לחם את העברים, ולפי זה נוכל לפרש מה שנאמר ולא ידע אתו מאומה שקאי על יוסף כי אע"פ שעזב כל אשר לו ביד יוסף והיה יוסף יכול לאכול מכל מיני מעדנים ומי ימחה בו שהרי הכל היה בידו, מ"מ לא ידע יוסף אתו מאומה שלא נהנה מכל פת בג אדוניו כ"א הלחם אשר הוא אוכל, פת במלח לבד אכל כדרכה של תורה, ואע"פ כן ויהי יוסף יפה תואר ויפה מראה כבראשונה וזיו אפוהי לא אשתני, כמו שקרה לדניאל וחביריו, ובזה מתורץ מה שמקשים וכי עכשיו נעשה יפה תואר ומראה והלא כבר היה לעולמים כן, אלא שלרבותא נקט כאן שלא נשתנה מחמת שלא רצה להתגאל בפת בג אדוניו
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The Mark of Torah - Lust Chizuk 15 Jan 2016 17:06 #274454

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Awesome, tysm Mark. Your bekios is inspiring.

A few comments -

1. According to this, the well known vort of masbeio ra'ev is limited to bios asuros. I would like to suggest this includes encounters with your wife that are technically mutar but are motivated by self-indulgence.

2. The taste of biah was given to baalei aveiroh. This at first seemed to me to be contradicting the point above. Then I thought along the lines of that taam is not ikar. Again just suggesting - maybe the Kli Yakar is referring to the illusion that lust indulgence will make us happy.

Any thoughts?
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The Mark of Torah - Lust Chizuk 15 Jan 2016 17:59 #274456

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eslaasos wrote:
Awesome, tysm Mark. Your bekios is inspiring.

A few comments -

1. According to this, the well known vort of masbeio ra'ev is limited to bios asuros. I would like to suggest this includes encounters with your wife that are technically mutar but are motivated by self-indulgence.

2. The taste of biah was given to baalei aveiroh. This at first seemed to me to be contradicting the point above. Then I thought along the lines of that taam is not ikar. Again just suggesting - maybe the Kli Yakar is referring to the illusion that lust indulgence will make us happy.

Any thoughts?


I've discussed that Kli Yakar worth Dr. Sorotzkin; he had mentioned it to me. What's interesting is that the Gemara says (can't remember where offhand) that Dovid Hamelech made a mistake bc he had relations during the day bc his Yetzer Hara was getting stronger, and that he forgot that משביעו רעב מרעיבו שבע.

So I think there are approaches other than the Kli Yakars that would say that it's even true by permitted relations.

I also don't think that the two things are contradictions. Specifically bc the real intense pleasure is by עוברי עבירה, it is like a drug and they need more and more. However, ביאות של היתר או מצוה are usually affirming and emotionally connecting. Those aren't usually addictive by definition, bc it is in the context of a healthy and emotionally intimate relationship.

As they say, my two cents for what it's worth.

The Mark of Torah - Lust Chizuk 15 Jan 2016 18:01 #274457

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eslaasos wrote:
Posting on behalf of Stillgoing -

Maybe mezonos, which means sustenance, can be missused by overeating. Personally i find that when indulging in lust, i also do the same with food.When i was younger my body shrugged it off. Now im starting to feel the weight and it's calling attention to me, that eating (mezonos) and lusting (z'nos) often follow each other - at least for me.


Anything can be misused.
The shoresh of the word is probably it's definition when it is used properly.
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"Tryin' and doin' are two different thin's - tryin' is hopin'; doin' is succeedin'.
"The right thin' to do and the hard thin' to do are usually the same."


Disclaimer: I am not a cheerleader; B"H, there are many on the site. I am here to change myself, and with God's help, by some mistake, I might even help change others.

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The Mark of Torah - Lust Chizuk 15 Jan 2016 18:03 #274458

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markz wrote:
eslaasos wrote:
Question for the weekend - why does mezonos and z'nus have the same shoresh?


וַיַּעֲזֹ֣ב כָּל-אֲשֶׁר-לוֹ֮ בְּיַד-יוֹסֵף֒ וְלֹא-יָדַ֤ע אִתּוֹ֙ מְא֔וּמָה כִּ֥י אִם-הַלֶּ֖חֶם אֲשֶׁר-ה֣וּא אוֹכֵ֑ל

בעה'ט: כי אם הלחם אשר הוא אוכל. בגימטריא היא אשתו:

כלי יקר: כי אם הלחם אשר הוא אוכל.פירש רש"י היא אשתו, כמ"ש ולא חשך ממני מאומה כי אם אותך באשר את אשתו, וקרא לאשתו בכנוי לחם כי כמו שהלחם משביע לכל חי יותר מן כל דבר הזן, כך בעילות של היתר משביעים אותו אבר, לאפוקי בעילות של איסור אינן משביעים, כמרז"ל (סוכה נב:) אבר קטן משביעו רעב וארז"ל (סנהדרין עה.)שניטל טעם ביאה וניתן לעוברי עבירה, כי אין יצרו תוקפו כי אם בדבר איסור, ולכך אמרו רז"ל (סוטה ד:) כל הבא על אשה זונה לסוף מבקש ככר לחם ואינו מוצא שנאמר (משלי ו.כו) כי בעד אשה זונה עד ככר לחם, וענשו מדה כנגד מדה לפי שעזב את אשתו שנקרא לחם ודבק בזונה שאינה לחמו על כן יחסר לחמו. ויש אומרים, לחם זה הוא לחם ממש, כי תועבה למצרים לאכול לחם את העברים, ולפי זה נוכל לפרש מה שנאמר ולא ידע אתו מאומה שקאי על יוסף כי אע"פ שעזב כל אשר לו ביד יוסף והיה יוסף יכול לאכול מכל מיני מעדנים ומי ימחה בו שהרי הכל היה בידו, מ"מ לא ידע יוסף אתו מאומה שלא נהנה מכל פת בג אדוניו כ"א הלחם אשר הוא אוכל, פת במלח לבד אכל כדרכה של תורה, ואע"פ כן ויהי יוסף יפה תואר ויפה מראה כבראשונה וזיו אפוהי לא אשתני, כמו שקרה לדניאל וחביריו, ובזה מתורץ מה שמקשים וכי עכשיו נעשה יפה תואר ומראה והלא כבר היה לעולמים כן, אלא שלרבותא נקט כאן שלא נשתנה מחמת שלא רצה להתגאל בפת בג אדוניו


Nice vort.
Accordingly, es laasos's question is even stronger now.
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The Mark of Torah - Lust Chizuk 15 Jan 2016 18:20 #274460

  • eslaasos
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cordnoy wrote:
eslaasos wrote:
Posting on behalf of Stillgoing -

Maybe mezonos, which means sustenance, can be missused by overeating. Personally i find that when indulging in lust, i also do the same with food.When i was younger my body shrugged it off. Now im starting to feel the weight and it's calling attention to me, that eating (mezonos) and lusting (z'nos) often follow each other - at least for me.


Anything can be misused.
The shoresh of the word is probably it's definition when it is used properly.


At your convenience, can you please clarify.
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The Mark of Torah - Lust Chizuk 15 Jan 2016 18:22 #274461

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cordnoy wrote:
markz wrote:
eslaasos wrote:
Question for the weekend - why does mezonos and z'nus have the same shoresh?


וַיַּעֲזֹ֣ב כָּל-אֲשֶׁר-לוֹ֮ בְּיַד-יוֹסֵף֒ וְלֹא-יָדַ֤ע אִתּוֹ֙ מְא֔וּמָה כִּ֥י אִם-הַלֶּ֖חֶם אֲשֶׁר-ה֣וּא אוֹכֵ֑ל

בעה'ט: כי אם הלחם אשר הוא אוכל. בגימטריא היא אשתו:

כלי יקר: כי אם הלחם אשר הוא אוכל.פירש רש"י היא אשתו, כמ"ש ולא חשך ממני מאומה כי אם אותך באשר את אשתו, וקרא לאשתו בכנוי לחם כי כמו שהלחם משביע לכל חי יותר מן כל דבר הזן, כך בעילות של היתר משביעים אותו אבר, לאפוקי בעילות של איסור אינן משביעים, כמרז"ל (סוכה נב:) אבר קטן משביעו רעב וארז"ל (סנהדרין עה.)שניטל טעם ביאה וניתן לעוברי עבירה, כי אין יצרו תוקפו כי אם בדבר איסור, ולכך אמרו רז"ל (סוטה ד:) כל הבא על אשה זונה לסוף מבקש ככר לחם ואינו מוצא שנאמר (משלי ו.כו) כי בעד אשה זונה עד ככר לחם, וענשו מדה כנגד מדה לפי שעזב את אשתו שנקרא לחם ודבק בזונה שאינה לחמו על כן יחסר לחמו. ויש אומרים, לחם זה הוא לחם ממש, כי תועבה למצרים לאכול לחם את העברים, ולפי זה נוכל לפרש מה שנאמר ולא ידע אתו מאומה שקאי על יוסף כי אע"פ שעזב כל אשר לו ביד יוסף והיה יוסף יכול לאכול מכל מיני מעדנים ומי ימחה בו שהרי הכל היה בידו, מ"מ לא ידע יוסף אתו מאומה שלא נהנה מכל פת בג אדוניו כ"א הלחם אשר הוא אוכל, פת במלח לבד אכל כדרכה של תורה, ואע"פ כן ויהי יוסף יפה תואר ויפה מראה כבראשונה וזיו אפוהי לא אשתני, כמו שקרה לדניאל וחביריו, ובזה מתורץ מה שמקשים וכי עכשיו נעשה יפה תואר ומראה והלא כבר היה לעולמים כן, אלא שלרבותא נקט כאן שלא נשתנה מחמת שלא רצה להתגאל בפת בג אדוניו


Nice vort.
Accordingly, es laasos's question is even stronger now.


I think you answered it above. Like kedusha and kedeisha.
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