This may sound funny, but I have learnt a lot from this thread. I used to think that it was only me, and if I could not accept everything that worked for other people then I was not serious about recovery. I now see that there are a lot of people like me. Recovery is a unique process and, like medication I will not get better by taking your medicine, and you might get bad side effects from taking my medicine. Each person has to find the prescription that will work for them.

Forgiven

I cannot state this as a fact, but it seems that Dov (my hero) doesn't give much importance to this forum as an end all, and it's only valuable as a vehicle to opening up
I actually encourage many newbies to follow that (just this past week one opened up to his Rebbi due to my encouragement via PM)
It seems that the.guard may feel the same as Dov and therefore asked if gye should shut down

However many current members don't need that road - it's likely a minority, but more guys than I thought, that have this forum as their home which is why Unanuman got upset earlier

Like Sg, I too still have many Dov quotes to read

Dov doesn't know his karma count cos he doesn't live here, but a different fellow that joined SA recently, told me he added aprx 100 karma to Dov's count

It's a token of appreciation, but since Dov doesn't live here, we should better get on the phone and call him if we want to say thanks

Markz wrote on 27 Dec 2016 17:53:


It's true. The forum is not an end all, but neither is opening up, or 12 steps. They are all simply a means to get to the real end all which is sobriety and a happy productive life. Should we knock meetings because they are not the end all? There are many means to get to the end and like mirrer wrote above, each person had their own path to get there.

Markz wrote on 27 Dec 2016 17:53:

Your post is extremely confusing and it also ignores many of dov's statements as to what he thinks GYE is, and "valuable" is not an adjective that he readily uses in reference to GYE.

AdditionallyI, if this (that it's a way to open up and go further), why the Hell should GYE shut down? That makes no sense.

Wow!  What clearly started out as a shocking way to get some more people to call in has really snowballed.

Shlomo24 wrote on 26 Dec 2016 17:58:


Shlomo, if I can change the topic for a minute, do you go to meetings in pajamas? It sounds like quite a chillin group you got there. :-)

stillgoing wrote on 27 Dec 2016 20:28:

Some people post in their pajamas.

stillgoing wrote on 27 Dec 2016 20:28:

I do! Sometimes. But I usually wear a sweater.

cordnoy wrote on 27 Dec 2016 20:51:

Who the hell doesn't post in their pajamas! Some people post in the nu.... Oops . How embarrassing.

Shlomo24 wrote on 27 Dec 2016 21:40:

Some post only in their pajamas.

OMG the secret has been revealed, Guard and Dov are one in the same person 

Relax everyone.  Unfortunately, GYE still has plenty of work to do, so, be'H, it's not going away anytime soon.

This is a great topic and some may say it is long over due. I've wrestled with these issues and have resolved them somewhat in my mind in some limited way.  Dov as I understand him speaks about his experience, the way he experiences things and what works for him. He says things as he sees it through it through the perspective of his experience. I have heard Dov say something like "you can't get sober without the 12 steps". Then a second later after someone would object, he would say something like "I never said that, that goes against everything I believe about the 12 steps, if I believed that I couldn't stay sober." So not only didn't he say what you thought he said, it's total opposite of what he believes.  Some of what I'm saying here may be what some people are complaining about. I'm not saying it as a complaint. To the extent the fault, if any, lies with Dov I'm sure he works to fix it to the extent he can. However, for me in my experience of what works for me, I have to look at what on my part is contributing to my misunderstanding. I'm not saying you have to do that. You can say screw Dov, if you want. I can't say that because I want what he has and for me to get what he has I have to understand his insights. I recently got into a disagreement with Dov over something he said. He went way above and beyond to try and explain to me what he meant but I wasn't getting it. What I did get is that he wasn't saying what I thought he was saying and he was talking about something totally on a different level than I was hearing.  It's like I tell you the car is red and then tell you I'm not saying the car is red and then spend 2 hours explaining to you what I am saying but never explain how I can say the car is red and then say I'm not saying the car is red. Dov often goes way deep and offers insights that are profound. I once spoke to Dov for an expended periods of time because I needed advice of a vital nature. After I spoke to him I spent time digesting what he was saying and then called him back to get more clarity. I was dealing with a difficult issue and I couldn't afford any ambiguity. Turned out that mistook one of the things he said, but I learned what he meant to say because I talked it out with him. 

Another thing is that for Dov and from his experience, which i relate to very much, the program of SA is a matter of life and death. It is the ikkur and not the tofel. So if something here is in his experience damaging in that view how could not say that. Is he not obligated to tell someone like himself that something is not good for them based on his experience.

Many people look at sobriety as an end. SA looks at sobriety as a mere beginning. It's a means to an end. If I don't lay a proper foundation I may not have a chance to ever get to that end. Truth is when I say "end" that's probably not very accurate. It's about constant growth as a human being. Most people here have, I believe, what is for them a much better method of constant growth and that's Torah and Mitsvos. They feel, rightfully so, that the aveira of shichva zeira livatalah etc is shtering that growth and getting in their way of reaching shlamus. For me that very avodah is detrimental to my recovery. And that isn't kefirah or whatever, it is the fact of my life. My problem was never merely doing an aveira, it was much deeper than that.

Hatzlacha chevra

Serenity, you're hired, official gye ambassador to dov.
You see things as they are, yet are wise enough to point out the main points.