Here

UraJew wrote: via Guard, I sent a message to Rabbi Shafier similar to Gibbor's (and I understand others as well) and he (Guard) received back the following response (from Rav Shafier):"I developed this series for "regular guys" meaning single yeshivah bochurim or married fellows, I have never worked with the type of group that GYE caters to. I hear the point that they are making and will keep it in mind."
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Here is what Yechidah added and clarified about this: "lust & healthy sexual desire are 2 different things
If R Shafier used the word "lust" -then he just used the wrong word
& even an addict,has to [see below where he changes this] employ healthy sexual desire towards his wife
its a fine line ,& an addict has to be careful ,but the healing growth is not to eliminate all sexual desire but to express it in healthy ways-towards ones wife & in a safe way
there is sexual passion within real love as well.but if one has fallen into patterns of lust he needs more caution.& gibbor is correct in very well defining the dangers as well as the caution needed.
But healthy sexual desire & real love are not mutually exclusive concepts. 
They even enhance one another & thats what R Shafier probably means. the term he used was incorrect but this is clearly his intent....
for an addict certainly its not "has to". its "if he can without any serious risk to his recovery"

R shafier makes 2 mistakes.1) his use of the word lust instead of sexual desire.its 2 different concepts 2) his not clarifying his term of making a wife " the object of your desire".having listened to his other tapes & even this one, he discusses love & respect & treating a wife as a human being in such clear terms, he does not mean this "object of desire" literally-even when speaking to a non-addict.what he means (atleast on a non-addict level) is that the sexual element (even physical desire) very much enhances a marriage.I agree.
your right in that I admit that this mode of interacting does have its real dangers to an addict.If you feel its too dangerous for an addict & it can harm his recovery,I certainly believe you (Dov)in that its a real risk.

But a married recovering addict cant avoid sex forever. & sex & sexual desire need not to be a damaging aspect forever (unless you really believe that it always will be-for every recovering addict on every level & for the rest of his life) if training of sexual desire (lust is not the right word) into ones spouse can feed into sexual manipulation-then he needs to learn the damage caused from manipulation & "unmanipulate"..Not to avoid sex & its real gifts.But to healthily engage in it & learn to behave in the opposite way -to unmanipulate.all wives are different but many do want to enjoy the sexual aspects of themselves.so if in some cases avoidance of the physicality of sex is thier learning experiece, then for others , the engaging in it & training ones self to learn how to interact with an open honesty that is in contrast to his natural manipulativeness-thats also a learning process,thats where he needs to grow. But "Le Maaseh"-practically speaking, you are right in that you need to know yourself & make sure you ask the right people who know your own state before his method should be employed,because the risks are there & they are real.Im just not convinced that its a wrong approach automatically for every addict on every level."
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TzedekChaim wrote on 05 Mar 2017 18:15:

Disclaimer: I didn't like "'the fight' shiurim by rabbi shafier".

That said, I think marriage can help and hurt. I think one of the misconceptions is that acting out is about taivah and hormones. Therefore, if a person has an outlet, he will not have a problem.

That may be true to a certain degree, but certainly for someone who is addicted, it can make things worse. He can view his wife as an object to satisfy his desires. (This is a sliding scale by the way, and I think we all do it to one degree or another.) He can then pressure her etc. She is turned off and it can make intimacy a source of tension instead of ... well intimacy .

Addiction is about escape. I know for myself, and I think many others here will agree, the biggest trigger I have is being in a fight with my wife. (That trigger doesn't exist for singles ). The fact that addiction has much more to do with emotional state etc. means that marraige can be good or bad. A good marriage can uplift a person etc.. A bad marriage can be toxic.

Even in a good marriage, there are bumps along the way. Getting married is stressful. As much as you think you love your kallah, and nothing will ever go wrong... the reality is much different.

I wouldn't stress aobut it too much. Just realize, that your emotional state is probably more important than your physical satisfaction.

Just do your best to be a good husband. To appreciate your wife as a person, and not pressure her to satisfy you. (That is not so say that she should not satisfy you, just that you should not be obsessed with her satisfying you in specific ways.) It is a learning process for both of you. Be open and honest and IY"H things will be good.

Please keep us posted.

gibbor120 wrote on 09 Mar 2017 20:23:

Please get this in the award postin' section.

When Gibbor writes several paragraphs, it's really a doozie.

Thank you

I agree, that was an epic post by gibbor.
I happened to REALLY like the series The Fight.
I even distributed many of the cds around several different Shuls. Anyway...

Marriage definitely helps. I can only speak about my experience 
as someone who struggles and has struggled in this area for years.
If a big tyvah came when I was single, I thought no outlet, no end in sight. I must release.
If a big tyvah came when I was married, I thought she will be muteres soon. I can wait.
This is the pas b'salo principle that is TOTALLY true. 
It is way easier to fast today, knowing that tonight you will have a big meal.
If you were a pauper with no money and no food, the fast would be a lot harder.
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If there is a shalom bayis fight and you expected to be together, that is a very BIG nisayon
to act out, as Gibbor said. Try your best not to get into fights, and admit you were wrong, if
a fight occurs. This is true no matter what, even though probably half the time, she was wrong (too).
Never expect that she will apologize to you...for anything...ever. If it happens, great.
But never expect it.
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A good or great marriage uplifts you emotionally and makes acting out very unlikely.
Again, Gibbor is right. Emotional stability is key, and rough patches in marriage or even a 
bad marriage, chas v'shalom, will make it VERY likely that the guy will act out.
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A good or great marriage takes time and effort. It doesn't just happen.
You have to be proactive creating the environment for love to grow and blossom.
If you do that, she will reciprocate, and you can break free and win the fight.
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NO idea how it works for an addicted guy. Just like NO addicted guy knows how it works for me.

Yosef Tikun HaYesod wrote on 09 Mar 2017 21:59:

how do you know you are not addicted?

Not sure if this is a Purim joke, Una.
How do we know anything?
We look at the facts and the whole picture and make a reasonable determination.
How do we know it's safe to cross the street?
Maybe a car will zoom out of nowhere and hit us, chas v'shalom...it happens.
Why make plans for Purim (or even Shabbos)?
Who knows if we will live that long?
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If you are truly serious, I am willing to have an email discussion...
or even a tiny one here (without attacking me, criticizing my way of thinking,
or making me feel defensive).

what would have fo be different in ylur life in order for you to consider yoirself an addict? 
in other words, what is it about being an addict that makes you feel you are not one of them/us? 

this is a small discussion

"What would have to be different in your life in order for you to consider yourself an addict? 
In other words, what is it about being an addict that makes you feel you are not one of them/us?" 
First thing that comes to mind is: wow, I really enjoy talking to someone smart. It's a deep Q.
Second thing that comes to mind is: that I can't answer the 2nd sentence for the very reason I wrote.
Third thing that comes to mind is: if I can answer the 1st sentence? 
Fourth thing is: that yes, I must be able to answer it.
Fifth thing is: what IS the answer?
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O.k. if chas v'shalom, things had been getting progressively worse. 
If I felt I was no longer in control of my actions. If I felt compelled to act out.
If I felt a certain tolerance to it, so the high was no longer a real high
as this short animation video describes: 
gye.vids.io/videos/d49bdfba1a11e4c45c/05-addiction-animation
Or if I felt like I couldn't live without it or overcome it...
I was somehow powerless and doomed to fail...
THEN I would strongly consider the possibility that I have an addiction 
that needs its own special treatment.

In the absence of all this, I feel it is far more likely that I have a very bad habit, 
that I can and will break free from and overcome.
It will still be very difficult and take major siata d'shamaya.

Perhaps the difference between a guy with 2 broken legs, running a 10k race the whole way,
in under 50 minutes, and a 75-pounds-overweight guy who can't run for even 2 minutes,
being able to run the same 10k race in under 50 minutes.
In a year's time, they both can do it and succeed. But the 1st guy needs special treatment
in a hospital, while the 2nd guy could theoretically do it on his own without special treatment.
That's not to say that he will put in the time and effort, learn new skills, and succeed. He probably won't.
But the 2nd guy has no chance without the special help that doctors in the hospital can provide.

Yosef Tikun HaYesod wrote on 09 Mar 2017 21:59:

It's a nice theory and may even work by some people, and even you. Continued hatzlachah with that.

II don't get involved in the addict/non addicts discussions.

From your experience last week, it doesn't seem that the "pas besalo waitin' routine" was in top form. But could be that was an exception.

Keep workin'.

Last week, was clearly an example of a shalom bayis fight...
not of the pas b'salo principle.

Yosef Tikun HaYesod wrote on 09 Mar 2017 23:29:

Ok.

That wasn't the way it was presented.

But that's also ok.

Day 192!!! B'H!!!!

There is a lot to post about b'H, but I will have to do it in smaller increments as time allows. 

Thank you Singularity, Coordnoy, Yosef, unanumun, and Markz* among others, for your encouraging support. R

@Yosef: I appreciate the detailed follow up and thoughts on Rav Shafier's lectures. I have to say that I agree that the image does not have to be x rated. But I'm not married and my kallah is quite modest, so for me an x rated picture is pure lust/fantasy. I find it helpful to think of her smiling, or just being herself. It helps. I think he intended it to be x rated in the shiur. It was explicit from his language, but I think the goal is to make your wife the ONLY woman in your mind. So if that happens different ways then great!

I got a lot a flak and concern (in the best way possible ) about praising you (yosef) for your story that you shared. I want to clarify that I don't think everything that occurred in the story is to be taken as an example. Just the difficulty of the test and the thought that just do what Hashem wants and things will work themselves out the way He want, which is always in MY best interest. So thank you Yosef for sharing, and thank you to those others for ensuring I make the most helpful distinctions I can.

Kol hakavod GYE!!! Thank you and have a fantastic shabbos!!!



*at first I was pretty sure, markz, that you just took an overall glance over my post, saw there were too many smiley's, and commented on those. Then I saw your Rav Shafier comment, and I was like, "whoa! he read the whole post! I'm very flattered." Then it turns out I was right all along . Thanks for being there time and again!!!

Almost forgot:

@workingGuy: Do you suggest those books be read before or after marriage? 



And an amazing story: (well maybe just amaz):

I was riding the train home late at night. (about 11:30pm --late school night) I sat down on the train in the corner and cracked open a chumash to do a little shnayim mikra. So the train is going and as trains are apt to do the lights in the car go out. Well almost all of them. The one over my head didn't go out. Chasdei Hashem And my learning got a lot better and more focused after that.

That's the story, pretty neat. Something I just thought of is that when all the lights are on. I most of the time don't realize that the light over my head is still on because Hashem wants it to be. Just for ME!

Thank you Hashem!!! 

Every smiley is a brownie point that gets others to read another paragraph of yours

Your future wife will be more receptive to you too with all your smileys so keep them up 

TSAAT

ten smileys at a time