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TOPIC: Dov Quotes 41633 Views

Re: Dov Quotes 29 Aug 2016 23:21 #294503

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Who says that shmiras eynayim is the key?

Dov wrote on 14 Sep 2011 23:00:
Who says that shmiras eynayim is the key?

Ok, it's necessary, yeah, and it is one of the only ways to actually walk the walk and not just talk the talk....and there are many ways to do that, as well.

But to me it seems poshut that the problem is lusting, not shmiras eynayim.

I know what it is like to go nuts over a perfect-looking woman that walks by. I know what seeing porn does to me and how it makes my entire mind change into a sick one, where porn and sex seem truly to be in my very best, bets interest - and Hashem seems awfully crazy to suggest (demand) otherwise.

I know all that from the inside, like you.

And yet it still boils down to lust. If I am wanting it, wishing for it, and often ready to fantasize over it, then I am going to flop practically whenever I see a triggering thing, as you describe. If I am still lusting, then I do not truly believe that orgasm (and sex) is optional. I believe I deserve it, that it is natural, and that I must do it. That it is ultimately my right, as a man with hormones and the right body parts.

If there is not a backdrop of readiness produced by lust, then what else praytell is the answer to your riddle?

So shmiras einayim is a great tool - to help us live without lusting. We are dry drunks if we are still lusting. And what you describe sounds to me just like that. Lust and fantasy alive and well, behind a scenery filled with shmiras einayim and sincerely good, decent behavior. In the end, it will not work.

The tachlis of my shiras einayim needs to be only to help me live real life today and that means free of the tyranny of lust today, and not chas veshilom as an end in and of itself: "I am shomer my eyes!" Big deal. Between the lines:"But I still see many women as sweet (witheld) sex candy; that their greatest value is in being 'hot';  that their body parts are above all, pleasure sources; and the temptations are crawling all over me, nebach." No. This is not going to work, and will not allow simcha even when it does work for a while. Many here and elsewhere seem to feel like "guarding your eyes" is what it is all about. Gevalt, gevalt. Lo sereid b'ni imochem.
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Re: Dov Quotes 12 Sep 2016 16:29 #295004

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the.guard wrote:
This thread is an amazing compilation of quotes from Dov! Yasher Koach to Gibor and all other contributors!

I need someone who is a good editor and who appreciates and understands Dov's writings, to help us compile a book. Any volunteers?

You can find much more of Dov's writings in the following two places:
1) Menu Bar > Articles > 12-Steps > Daily Dose of Dov
2) Menu Bar > Articles > Q&A > Dov Answers

Here are the direct links:
  1. guardyoureyes.com/articles/12-step/category/daily-dose-of-dov
  2. guardyoureyes.com/articles/questions-and-answers/category/dov-answers


IMHO Dovs posts should not be combined into one long flowing story
Rather keep his posts how they are

Call the Book "Dov Yomi"

It will require someone with a keen eye to index the posts under specific headers. For example "Capt Kirk" is a great post title but needs to be also indexed under "Disclosure > Anonymity" or similar

Gibbor - what's your take?
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Re: Dov Quotes 14 Sep 2016 16:21 #295100

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I started this thread because the nature of this forum is kind of random.  There is no easy way to index and access posts.  There were so many dov post gems that I decided to collect them under one thread and give each one a title and direct link to it from the first page.

Dov's style is also a bit difficult to just put into chapters.  I'm honestly not sure of the best way to go about it.  It would definitely take a substantial amount of time, and as guard said, an understanding of dov (it would probably need dov's involvement to some degree).  I figured out certain things dov says, but I'm still baffeled by some.  He is a paradox in a way.  The hardest to understand, but making the most impact.

In short, there are a lot of hurdles to compiling a book, but I think it would be one step better that this thread which doesn't really follow any sort of logical flow. 
Last Edit: 14 Sep 2016 16:21 by gibbor120.

Re: Dov Quotes 14 Sep 2016 16:30 #295102

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Dov always discusses multiple issues in each post so there's not usually gonna be a flow, and your thread is great

KUTGW!!!! biz 120!!!

I think we need to 

Index 
#1) The main point of each post
#2) Each and every point

Index #1) Would determine the format of the book
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Re: Dov Quotes 19 Feb 2017 21:32 #306169

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Many Levels of Addiction

Dov wrote on 29 Jun 2009 17:11:
This site has educated me about the many different levels of adook-tion ;D (a rather funny play on the Loshon-Kodesh, no?) : many folks peruse this site and look in quiet curiosity at this forum where people frankly talk about the same issues that they have been hiding for years. Others are ready to do something, but figure they (and their rovs) need to just learn the Torah Tricks, Torah advice, as long as they can remain the same Yid they are now and somehow solve this problem in the "beis medrash" together with a group of yidden. They do not care if it's more of the same. (For some - probably for many - it will work, but for many others it will be just more of the same silliness; but leaving their comfort zone in any meaningful way is still out of the question...). Others "have it real bad" and have had enough; they are ready for anything and need the steps before they lose their homes, jobs, lives etc.. All this was not really obvious to me before I came to this forum.

So, for the kind of person who really is not sick enough to be addicted and their lives are not out of control, they need someplace to turn for Torah advice, chizzuk, and whatever, to get wise to the YH for pritzus, and to do teshuva, fast.  This site does a great job of this, I figure.

For the folks who really are hopelessly hooked, and their lives as they have known them are really over but they just do not realize it yet, this site may be a double-edged sword: they may hang on in their folly much, much longer, putting yet more band-aids on their cracked skulls. On the other hand, our posts may help those folks get their inhibitions down sufficiently to finally know that their problem is actually much more deep and serious than they cared to admit, that strong medicine is likely needed, and that as we are not running away from their bitter medicine, maybethey do not have to keep running either!

For all these latter folks - which I think are many - No, I do not think sending them to SA-type groups has any risk of hurting their yiddishkeit. These folks are the ones who will eventually, get divorced, ruining their wives lives, not get divorced and ruin their kids' lives too, reach old age (and death) with a very strange and depressing life behind them (though to the non-immediate family observer it seemed quite run-of-the-mill!), go to jail, or even be in the paper. The pain and chilul Hashem potential is quite staggering. No, I feel that if a yid is truly addicted, his yiddishkeit can only get better from that point on, really. If they go to meetings and get less frum in the short term, I think they either have a secondary problem that led to it, or it is really a good thing because they were totally hypocritical in addiction, anyway. I know this is terribly painful. I think it is extremely rare for frum addicts to drop yiddishkeit upon getting sober. Weaker and colder, yes - that is a common side-effect. But with time, as in my case, it reverses and their yiddishkeit really, finally grows to become really powerful. But really, (here I go): what value does Hashem have in the avoda of a yid who has empty avodah, parrots things, and does not keep the the six constant mitzvos at all because he is too busy hiding the fact that he is looking at po-n, mast--ting, and other stuff? Anyway, in the long term, frum addicts who I know, tend to get frummer in later recovery.  
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Re: Dov Quotes 19 Feb 2017 21:51 #306171

Did you mean to post that here I AM A NON ADDICT???
my thread:guardyoureyes.com/forum/4-On-the-Way-to-90-Days/300426-I-will-make-it-bh" option="guardyoureyes.com/forum/4-On-the-Way-to-90-Days/300426-I-will-make-it-bh">I will make it b"h


guardyoureyes.com/forum/20-Important-Threads/19180-FEEL-THE-HUGS%21%21%21" option="guardyoureyes.com/forum/20-Important-Threads/19180-FEEL-THE-HUGS%21%21%21">FEEL THE HUGS!!!

Re: Dov Quotes 20 Feb 2017 08:16 #306214

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I'm riding on that "tend to get frummer later in recovery" saving grace right now... But I completely understand it.
"Vegeta, what does the scouter say about his sobriety level?"
"... It's over NINE-ZEROOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!"

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Re: Dov Quotes 21 Feb 2017 12:43 #306372

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II found this Dov quote in a very special thread:

"So I try to keep my eye on sanity rather than goodness."

[There obviously are levels for this, but me think it is a good principle to have in your toolshed. If the "aveirah" works for you, go for itI, but if the struggle still continues, you might wanna focus on what can I do toI become (somewhat) sane.]

Thanks Dov
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Re: Dov Quotes 21 Feb 2017 15:09 #306380

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cordnoy wrote on 21 Feb 2017 12:43:
II found this Dov quote in a very special thread:

"So I try to keep my eye on sanity rather than goodness."

[There obviously are levels for this, but me think it is a good principle to have in your toolshed. If the "aveirah" works for you, go for itI, but if the struggle still continues, you might wanna focus on what can I do toI become (somewhat) sane.]

Thanks Dov

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Re: Dov Quotes 26 Feb 2017 20:12 #306856

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img_0805.PNG


TODAY IS D DAY

WE LOVE DOV 
ONE DOV AT A TIME

ITS DOVS 20TH YEAR OF ODAAT

THANK YOU FOR SHARING THEM WITH US ALL

MAZEL TOV!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Re: Dov "Quotes" 26 Jun 2017 14:12 #316099

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gibbor120 wrote on 24 Jan 2012 19:45:
We do NOT Beat the Y"H - We Surrender (from daily dose)



Ahron wrote:

Help - I just started to look at shmutz and by some miracle, I was disgusted by it.... I think I'm going to take a nap. I gotta get away! Yesterdays chizuk is helping me nowI think.




DesperateJew responds:

Ahron, you did well. You caught yourself, and stopped!

I'm not sure what you meant that you got disgusted and I surely hope you don't mean with yourself! You, by virtue of being capable of overpowering 'the smart one', can not be disgusting in Hashem's eyes.

Take it easy, and keep it up!





Dov Responds:

Dear DesperateJew,

The following is purely my own opinion and I do not speak for anyone else, and certainly not for GYE:

It is not my practice to criticize, particularly when it is so obvious, as in your comments, that you mean only to be helpful. However I feel it is important to point out that (unless I misread your comments) you are implying to Ahron that he caught himself, and that he is being capable of overpowering the YH. I see your message as one of encouragement. I have a problem with this that I feel I need to share with you. If you can bear with me, I'd appreciate it.

Reading his words, I see a fellow who seems ready to give Hashem all the credit for the victory - not himself (he says "by some miracle"). He also gives credit to his buddies for the chizzuk - rather than declaring his new-found power to 'overcome' the YH.

I am sorry if this rubs you the wrong way but everybody is entitled to an opinion, and I want to share mine: I have seen the well-meaning comments some folks give others to "believe in yourself and pat yourself on the back for the clean days you have amassed!", or to be grateful that "you are/were able to beat the YH".

While it seems to be very nice to build up people's self confidence, I have never witnessed this perspective prove helpful to anyone I know, in the long-run. And to my mind, the damage done by the ga'avah that "I can make it" would be the nail in my coffin. I speak about addicts, now. When any addict I have met gets fooled that he or she actually has the power to "beat this thing": yatza scharo b'hefseido. I cannot recall anyone with this attitude staying sober for very long. My guess is that the 'pressure builds up' after a while... and where is their power then? I wonder. It seems an enigma to them: "Well, if I had the power then,why don't I have it now?! If He could help me then, why isn't Hashem helping me now? Is He weaker? Does he not like me as much? Is it because of my aveiros that I do not deserve His help?" This entire self-preoccupied way of thinking leads to painful frustration, and even to excruciating emunah problems. I have seen it happen here and elsewhere.

Parroting the words, "Well, of course we mean that it is 'with Hashem's help'! That's obvious... we are all frum yidden and ma'aminim b'nei ma'aminim here, aren't we?!" is not enough, in my opinion. Actually, I believe that it is meaningless.

We parroted these words all these years - and never stopped. Has being on GYE for a few weeks or months magically given us real emunah? We weren't really frum then, but we are really frum now? I doubt it. Inspiration will only help us stay clean as long as the inspiration lasts. To me (and other addicts), leaning on the crutch of chizuk and frantically fanning the flames of chizuk each day, is just delaying the inevitable - waiting for the other shoe to drop. At least that is how it'd be for me. This is not a game in many cases. In my case and that of many others, it is a battle to save our minds, our marriages, custody of our children, and our jobs, not a matter of only being happy or 'good people'.

We need to do things very differently than we were doing them before, if we expect to have a very different result. For the addicts among us, I suggest admitting that we have lost the battle and becoming satisfied with remaining 'losers' until further notice. That is, we remain guaranteed to lose as long as we insist upon going about life our way. Addicts who use the 12 steps often discover that they need to surrender to Hashem and do His Will, or they will lose again. That is the 3rd step - and all the ensuing steps are about getting closer to that surrender. BTW, the kavonoh in "Echod" is exactly that: Dying for Him - and then "v'ohavta" is about giving up our plans and control of all our ambitions and desires in this life - bad and good; our very right to live; and surrendering all our talents, money, and priorities - all to Hashem.

Addicts who take the third step, set out to accomplish at least some surrender of their egos to Hashem - to save their lives. Cuz this self-abandonment to Hashem is AAs only answer to what you call the Yetzer Hara - self destruction. It seems that AA goes with the 'nuclear option' for problems like addiction. But like I said - if we are to get a different result, we need to go about our lives differently. I do not see "being more frum" as significantly different, that's all. We need a radical change in Derech Eretz - in the underlayment for Torah, rather than "more," or "better" Torah - on a time-bomb foundation of insanity.

And BTW, this idea is why I first posted on GYE. If I just pass this along to a few of my frustrated fellow yidden, all the late nights posting will be worthwhile!

I respect your opinion should you feel very differently than I do, and I know that what works for me will not always work for many other people.


Thank you Markz for pointing me to this great post, and thank you Dov for your great input, and thank you Hashem for directing me to this great place....
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כי עיקר מציאות האדם בעה"ז הוא רק לקיים מצות ולעמד בניסיון,  והנאות העולם אין ראוי שיהו לו אלא לעזר ולסיוע בלבד לשיהיה לו נחת רוח ויישוב הדעת למען יוכל לפנות לבו אל העבודה הזאת מסילת ישרים

Re: Dov Quotes 11 Jul 2017 22:10 #317059

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ODAAT

One Day at a Time does NOT mean 24hr White Knuckling

Dov wrote on 19 Apr 2010 09:16:
Aryehtahor, it's so nice to read what you wrote about how living one day-at-a-time is not like telling the YH to come back tomorrow. Though I believe that it can be that too, that eitza isn't realistic for most addicts I know, either. It tends to make the whole thing a waiting game, and the "pressure just builds up", as they say. Never worked for me.

The idea that it's about realism, is much more the way I see it, as SB said above. Practically, that means some things we tend to like, while - if we really take it seriously - it also means some things we don't really like that much. But consistency=honesty, right?

For example:

*no asking for Hashem to keep me sober this week, year (even on R"H), or just "in general" - it's always for today and only for today. Just cuz other people can daven for the year or week, doesn't mean I can.

*worrying about "what will be with" me/my kids/whatever, in the future is a negation of living one day at a time - can't afford to do it much. I need to find and use tools to let go of my emotional load from the future - while not being a moron about it, of course. That takes learning simple trust of Hashem, and not much else.

*focusing on what's really going on today is what it's all about. Before recovery, the only thing that made "today" bearable was the fact that I had a rendezvous with some lust adventure planned tomorrow, or living in the euphoric recall of the schmutz I watched yesterday. How the heck are we supposed to ever live right if it's never actually today in our hearts?!

*remembering that today is OK. It's the best Hashem has to offer for me, if I make the best of it.

It's more of an attitude than an action, but requires actions like mantras or affirmations of the above repeated a few times per day and trying to reduce the actions and thoughts that contradict it in the way we live. When a lust opportunity presents itself, it is time for surrender of the opportunity by bringing it into the light and sharing it with a friend, explicitly admitting the truth to Hashem about intentions and doing our best to give the struggle up to Him right then, and not worrying about what will be tomorrow - or admitting our hypocrisy based on our stupid behavior from yesterday. All that stuff is shtuyot. As realistic, honest, and sensible it may seem at the time, living one day-at-a-time demands surrender to Hashem right now, I guess.

There's a lot more to it, so thanks for opening this chashuv issue up for exploration.

Of course, living it is all that really matters, not figuring it all out. In fact, the only way I have anything to share about this at all is from living it a bit. Nothing i wrote above was what I had figured out about it before recovery. I threw all that in the trash with every other well-intentioned hashkofa/advice that didn't  work for me at all. 

Hatzolcha!
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Re: Dov Quotes 24 Jun 2019 19:19 #341914

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So, lately, I've been spendin' a lot of time with Dov (doesn't say too much for my sanity), and I've heard several important things which might be useful for some:

1. "Powerless over lust" (in the first step and before) does not mean that you cannot stop; it means that you cannot successfully use or enjoy lust in a manageable way.

2. The word "trigger" should be abolished; it makes one into a victim.

3. A "shivron leiv" is a sad fellow; a "leiv nishbor" is a broken ego.

4. Definin' addicts by their behaviors is an utter waste of time.

Godspeed to you
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If one gives up at the first sign of a struggle, he is really not ready to be successful."
"Tryin' and doin' are two different thin's - tryin' is hopin'; doin' is succeedin'.
"The right thin' to do and the hard thin' to do are usually the same."


Disclaimer: I am not a cheerleader; B"H, there are many on the site. I am here to change myself, and with God's help, by some mistake, I might even help change others.

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Re: Dov Quotes 27 Jun 2019 14:49 #341974

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cordnoy wrote on 24 Jun 2019 19:19:
So, lately, I've been spendin' a lot of time with Dov (doesn't say too much for my sanity), and I've heard several important things which might be useful for some:

1. "Powerless over lust" (in the first step and before) does not mean that you cannot stop; it means that you cannot successfully use or enjoy lust in a manageable way.

2. The word "trigger" should be abolished; it makes one into a victim.

3. A "shivron leiv" is a sad fellow; a "leiv nishbor" is a broken ego.

4. Definin' addicts by their behaviors is an utter waste of time.

Godspeed to you

I'd like to expound on #4.

Dov has told Guard many times that he should leave the word "addict" out of GYE. In his opinion (I think), it was an excuse for someone thinkin' he's addicted to act as he pleases, for what option does he have. Obviously, he was not successful, and Guard, if he wants, can explain his decision.

Here is the way I understand what Dov was sayin': The behaviors that people do in the way they act out, the frequency, the extent, etc. do not define someone as an addict or not. Two people can be occupied with the exact same tendencies and one might be addicted and the other not. Both of them might want to stop desperately and have tried many ways but cannot overcome, and yet, one might be addicted and the other not.

Furthermore, there are those who mistakenly think that the addict's mind is warped and sick and perverted and cannot be trusted (and they mistakenly think that the addict's zipper is always opened, which is also wrong, for both the addict and the non-addict might have the same tendency), and whatever words of wisdom or not is spewed outta the addict's mouth must be taken with a morsel of pepper, for after all, he's a weirdo!

And, that, says Dov, is utter nonsense! The difference between the two is not defined by their behaviors, but rather, by how it affects them. Is their life unmanageable? (mine wasn't.) Were they able to enjoy lust? (I wasn't, for a variety of reasons.) Are they able to use lust successfully? (I now can.) [This has nothin' to do with the Torah's view on lust - if it should be eradicated, or not. This is not to say that it's muttar to use lust - that is not the point at all.] "Powerless over lust" has nothin' to do with frequencies, peep-holes, hookers, clubs and masseuss'! It simply means: Lust makes me crazy, insane, miserable, unmanageable. [Not to be confused with what the aveirah does to my psyche and that it gets me depressed.] [On a call last night, a dear friend told me that when he is engrossed in watchin' porn, he becomes a different fellow; his life turns upside down. He cannot watch responsibly, for then (even afterwards and before, and especially durin'), he does not have patience with his kids or wife; he gets angry and irritable, but in his present state, he can lust responsibly in the street over the object of his desire with a perfect body. He knows that the RBs"O does not want him to and he'd like that to stop, but he is glad to be at the stage where he is not powerless over lust.]

Not usual for me to write such a lengthy post, but as I'm tryin' to explain what Dov meant/means, I feel that I must humor him a bit, and not write my usual three sentences. [By the way, one thing that Dov does so well is to tell you what somethin' isn't: Lust isn't this....., an addict does not mean that....., the Ramchal had no intention of....., and that sometimes takes time until he eventually tells you what it actually is.]

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Re: Dov Quotes 27 Jun 2019 16:44 #341977

  • Markz
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Thank you for elaborating - this IS something that’s been mentioned repeatedly and worth explaining in detail. I feel a little more clarity would be helpful.

Because I thought ‘addict’ refers to someone that’s hooked on something and will continually try get their fix being out of control = powerless. By default their life becomes unmanageable.

2 people may be acting out.
1 out of pleasure although can control.
The other because they are addicted to this escape.

But your definition is that only when they are in the throes of their escape is their life outa control.

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