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A struggling bochur
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TOPIC: A struggling bochur 57289 Views

Re: A struggling bochur 28 Oct 2019 15:40 #344595

  • Shteigen613
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1. Thanks for the responses. Regarding the main point of "yeshiva people having intimacy issues". My main point was not to exclude any other group from having intimacy issues. Certainly other sub-groups amongst the orthodox, and non-orthodox and non -jewish have intimacy issues, as evidenced by the mulititude of books on the subject and scientific studies performed on the general population. 
2. What makes the problem of the Yeshiva population unique, is exactly what "sleepy" wrote above: one would think that a community who a. Has a. access to education pre-marriage through chosson and kallah classes, AND b. Maintains this notion where intimacy stays within the realm of husband and wife would have great intimacy.
for many, however, it's a slow and difficult start after marriage. Girls who are raised "bais yaakov" may have an INNER fear or INNER uncomfort with men, which they gleaned from either implicit direction (the hanhaga of separate seating. No mixed events for teens etc.) Or explicit direction (shmoozes from rabbanim about the dangers of mixing of the genders or "sitting by the same table or near tables at the pizza store.").
B.Y. girls imbibe this attitude FOR YEARS throughout their adolescence into adulthood.
To address the statement above regarding how kallah classes should help..., it is amazing to me how we expect the INNER aversion of the B.Y. girl to a male simply after a period of 5-10 kallah classes.
Sure, the kallah may connect with her teacher, who she may describe as, "like totally amazing and understanding person, omg, the rebbitzen is like sooo with it, it's amazing."
Yet, if the kallah developed an INNER fear or INNER aversion over a period of YEARS, it seems unlikely that a few hours (3-20 hours, depending) with a rebbitzen or cool new-age kallah teacher will change that.
here's  the kicker, once the B.Y. girl gets married, she also wants to have a child. That means pregnancy  (sorry to educate everyone here . Pregnancy throws it's own wrench in the wheel of intimacy).
that immediate jump from celibacy to intimacy, to pregnancy is quite an astonishing feat emotionally, physically, and hormone"ally". ( my own word).
A B.Y. girl may smile flirtatiously at her chosson or not she's dating. That's really cool and positive. However, that's only the "chitzoniyus" of intimacy, and in no way indicates that the smiley B.Y. girl is ready for physical or emotional intimacy with her chosson.

so... you ask, "shteigen, you've articulated THE problem so well, what's the solution??"
well, the sad news is I dont have an answer. I do not come to critique any system, just to share my thoughts and observations. Global solutions are beyond me, and maybe even the subject of this forum. (What, like mixed yeshiva and a beis yaakov night at the pizza store???)

on a local level, for each chosson, it is important to know that for you as a male, this may be an easy transition. (For some males it may not be, as per my conversations with experts on the subject, and the message boards at gye...) For your wife, however, chances are, that it will be a difficult transition to initmacy. For some, good intimacy comes right away. G-d bless you. For others, it takes years, and may never develop. NEVER.
my advice therefore is, take it slow, know what you're up against, KEEP expectations LOW, and don't take rejection personally.
I sign with a sigh of sorrow, not bitter about my personal circumstances, just accepting reality.
if anyone has any other advice or response, for me or the newly married, please respond or message. It is appreciated. 

Re: A struggling bochur 28 Oct 2019 16:00 #344596

  • sleepy
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wow, great post! thank you again.
For an explanation on my choice of username and avatar see my first post

Re: A struggling bochur 28 Oct 2019 16:03 #344597

  • SamB
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I think that in the frum community because sex and intimacy is not talked about. There should be a mandatory follow up with chosson rebbe and kallah teacher,maybe 2 or 3 month after marriage,because its hard to explain to a frum jew specially a girl whats normal whats right whats wrong etc.

Re: A struggling bochur 28 Oct 2019 16:17 #344599

  • Shteigen613
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I agree that the lack of education in flames the issue and that communication will help. However... you assume the chosson teacher/Rebbe or kallah teacher are themselves competant in giving hadracha.
After my marriage, I did speak with "the usual suspects" and the advice I got was totally off the mark. It took me years to get to the bottom of the issues

not to generalize, but I think those giving hadracha  , esp in my case, would benefit from some proffesional help. Without getting into detail Their advice hurt more than it helped. 
I spoke with chosson teachers who say this is true about many teachers in their profession. My intent is not to smear or paint with a broad brush, just to say that there is a real issue with the system,  B.Y. Girls in particular, combined with chosson teachers and kallah teachers who purport to offer good advice but may not be...
with the utmost respect, youre advice of mandatory calling a  "Rebbe and kallah teacher" may do more harm than good, unfortunately. 
From speaking to those in the business... some rebbes/chosson teachers are just plain "wacky" and out of touch, unfortunately. It's especially hard for the yeshiva bochur who has NO WAY (pre-marriage)  of finding out that his hadracha is quite odd... he has no guidelines of normal...

Re: A struggling bochur 28 Oct 2019 16:23 #344601

  • i-man
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Some good points - But lest we forget when we come into a marriage with years of building expectations from watching porn and fantasizing no one could really compete 
(Im not taking away from people who have wives who have a real problem in this area) 

Re: A struggling bochur 28 Oct 2019 16:27 #344602

  • Markz
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Shteigen some points may be valid, maybe not, but this one threw me for a loop

“INNER fear or INNER uncomfort with men, which they gleaned from either implicit direction (the hanhaga of separate seating. No mixed events for teens etc.) Or explicit direction (shmoozes from rabbanim about the dangers of mixing of the genders or "sitting by the same table or near tables at the pizza store.").”

Separate seating and shmoozes from rabbanim create fear or discomfort?

btw have you read any Dov posts on the subject? Or asked a professional as to why Kalla’s have fears?
And does anyone know if we are in the BB section currently
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Last Edit: 28 Oct 2019 16:30 by Markz.

Re: A struggling bochur 28 Oct 2019 16:34 #344603

  • sleepy
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Markz wrote on 28 Oct 2019 16:27:
Shteigen some points may be valid, maybe not, but this one threw me for a loop

“INNER fear or INNER uncomfort with men, which they gleaned from either implicit direction (the hanhaga of separate seating. No mixed events for teens etc.) Or explicit direction (shmoozes from rabbanim about the dangers of mixing of the genders or "sitting by the same table or near tables at the pizza store.").”

Separate seating and shmoozes from rabbanim create fear or discomfort?

btw have you read any Dov posts on the subject? Or asked a professional as to why Kalla’s have fears?
And does anyone know if we are in the BB section currently

i totally agree with shteigen ,a healthy fear is created ,makes sense.
For an explanation on my choice of username and avatar see my first post

Re: A struggling bochur 28 Oct 2019 16:45 #344605

  • sleepy
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i mean youre entitled to your opinion too, but i ,for one dont think that it was a WILD idea
For an explanation on my choice of username and avatar see my first post
Last Edit: 28 Oct 2019 16:51 by sleepy.

Re: A struggling bochur 28 Oct 2019 16:49 #344606

  • sleepy
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sleepy wrote on 28 Oct 2019 16:34:

Markz wrote on 28 Oct 2019 16:27:
Shteigen some points may be valid, maybe not, but this one threw me for a loop

“INNER fear or INNER uncomfort with men, which they gleaned from either implicit direction (the hanhaga of separate seating. No mixed events for teens etc.) Or explicit direction (shmoozes from rabbanim about the dangers of mixing of the genders or "sitting by the same table or near tables at the pizza store.").”

Separate seating and shmoozes from rabbanim create fear or discomfort?

btw have you read any Dov posts on the subject? Or asked a professional as to why Kalla’s have fears?
And does anyone know if we are in the BB section currently

i totally agree with shteigen ,a healthy fear is created ,makes sense.

can you send a link where dov posts on the subject, please enlighten us.
For an explanation on my choice of username and avatar see my first post

Re: A struggling bochur 28 Oct 2019 18:05 #344612

  • Markz
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sleepy wrote on 28 Oct 2019 16:49:

sleepy wrote on 28 Oct 2019 16:34:

Markz wrote on 28 Oct 2019 16:27:
Shteigen some points may be valid, maybe not, but this one threw me for a loop

“INNER fear or INNER uncomfort with men, which they gleaned from either implicit direction (the hanhaga of separate seating. No mixed events for teens etc.) Or explicit direction (shmoozes from rabbanim about the dangers of mixing of the genders or "sitting by the same table or near tables at the pizza store.").”

Separate seating and shmoozes from rabbanim create fear or discomfort?

btw have you read any Dov posts on the subject? Or asked a professional as to why Kalla’s have fears?
And does anyone know if we are in the BB section currently

i totally agree with shteigen ,a healthy fear is created ,makes sense.

can you send a link where dov posts on the subject, please enlighten us.

It may create a healthy fear amongst the boys too, and we have enough trouble on our hands.
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Re: A struggling bochur 28 Oct 2019 21:50 #344621

  • Hakolhevel
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I will go with I-man. There are lots of problems it there, and it's good to be educated about them, bit unless you will do something about it, focus on the one thing you can change, yourself. 

You can somewhat help your wife, but for the most part, your mission in life is to accept what has come to you , and deal with yourself.

Since people grow up in broken homes with bad parents, don't try to fix your parents, work on yourself. Obviously in a marriage it's a little different because there has to be a relationship, but I think sometimes there has to be a acceptance of your lot, your wife is never going to be there woman your want her to be in this area.

That's how I see it at least.  

As markz mentioned though I think this whole discussion would do better in the BB section.

Re: A struggling bochur 28 Oct 2019 22:19 #344622

  • Shteigen613
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Thanks.
Excellent insight.
where is bb?

Re: A struggling bochur 29 Oct 2019 00:02 #344626

  • sleepy
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in israel i think
For an explanation on my choice of username and avatar see my first post

Re: A struggling bochur 29 Oct 2019 04:20 #344635

  • i-man
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i-man wrote on 28 Oct 2019 16:23:
Some good points - But lest we forget when we come into a marriage with years of building expectations from watching porn and fantasizing no one could really compete 
(Im not taking away from people who have wives who have a real problem in this area) 

I'm trying to remember where to find the Fabulous post from skeptical on this idea I think it was the most thanked post ever...

Re: A struggling bochur 17 Nov 2019 11:08 #345179

  • mikestrucking
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Shteigen613 wrote on 28 Oct 2019 22:19:
Thanks.
Excellent insight.
where is bb?

I hope not in jail
but I don't have any opinions on outside issues
Formerly mikestruggling I just bought a truck. l hang out in the trailer and G-d drives. 
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