Gibor you are assuming that there is only one correct solution for everything. Then yes hopefuly with time I'll understand the other side of the argument. But as you said there is no balck & white. Then in that case perhaps tehre are two solutions.

1) Only love.
2) Grab that lust obsession and fold it over into love while knocking it down to desire.

For me #2 seems to work so why not continue on that path. And I don't say option #1 is not a plan. Option 1 may work for some maybe even for the majorty.

If I may add two points.

It may be true that allowing lust in and directing it to your wife is ok for a normal person, but for and addict, and I am not saying you are, who feeds on lust like a junkie on heroin, there is no place for it. We are not like normal people we have a disease.

The second point and this is perhaps more important is this itch you keep talking about. The saying goes the more you feed it the more you need it. The itch is there because you feed the lust. The less you feed it the less insistent it becomes. That should be your first focus because that is the first step to breaking free. To break that dependence.

waydown wrote:
I don't see where I said that in my post.

I love this rischa deoraysa. Waydown I do agree with you what you wrote 98%.

1% I'd like to hear how you and your wife plan to cope with her skipping make up when she's nidda like I pointed out earlier today

The other 1% I hope to dscs with you later

The other 1%
Every wife needs compliments from her husband, so if all you can muster is 'you're beautiful like these sick models with lipstick and fake eyelashes etc' then she'll have to take it. Maybe she gives the impression she's ok comparing her to the porn industry but she wishes for better. She probably knows where you're up to and can't expect more. I'm partially talking to myself here. What's your thoughts

waydown wrote:


Love might not be external, but the externals affect love.

attraction = itch!? that is someone who has a lust overdrive!

waydown wrote:


you can continue with 2, for that is your prerogative; however, if you want advice from people like Gibbor, it is a recipe for disaster.

And usin' that as a segway to your first comment about Gibbor, and his subsequent one, perhaps take this advice (from a lust addict): from your posts it appears that you are insistent, stubborn and close-minded (and when I joined GYE, I was called out by Pure Daniel as bein' a: self centred, egotistical self-obsessed guy; and guess what? I learned from it), and therefore I would suggest (again) to stop or curb the combative nature of yours and spend some time listenin' to others and digestin' what they have to say. Keep practicin' your mehalech at home, but leave an open mind. If after a week or so of thinkin' of what others have been tellin' you, you decide that it is garbage for you, so discard it and let us know.

b'hatzlachah to you; hopin' for only the best for you, as you are on a real good road

waydown, I wouldn't be surprised if at this point you feel like people are ganging up on you, but maybe your self-esteem is stronger than mine.

There were times when I too deliberately chose to do something I knew was wrong because it was better than the alternative. I don't know if it was right or wrong, (and I'm really not looking forward to the time when I'll find out), but it did divert me away from worse places for a while.
It NEVER gave me a long term solution, and it still left me with a different set of baggage. There's no such thing as doing bad with good intentions = doing good.

I saw a post in a different website regarding escapism which is also true here.
It's OK to escape as long as:
1. You know it's an escape
2. You have a long term plan in addition to the short term plan.
3. It's not too harmful

Sounds like you are well aware that this is a short term plan, and that you need to have a long term plan.
The only difference of opinion we have, following this model, is whether your attitude is harmful. I don't think either of us is going to change our minds so I'd like to close this specific conversation from my side agreeing to disagree, and wishing each other well.
I sincerely apologize if I offended you in the course of the conversation, as that was never my intention.
Hatzlocho raboh my friend, and let's find something else to debate.

waydown wrote:


Anyone that's baki in chadrei waydown, will have to concede that he's a holy kodosh yid!
I'm proud to be rubbing shoulders with you waydown, and I enjoy debating with you too

KHT

unanumun wrote:


Waydown, in sevara there may be no way to convince you. However, once you personally experience what the oilam is trying to concince you of, you will understand.

unanumun בשם unanumun wrote:

Good point, we gotta try the real stuff. לחיים ברידער!!
If later one of the guys gets addicted to alcohol, nu nu, so he'll have to join AA too, אין בעיה, he'll get over it.
Anyone volunteering to be a sponsor?

Markz re the nida thing,

Thats no an argument. Because its not like oh every day she wears make up automaticlly=itch, no make up not automaticlly itch. Its a general process. And at the end of the day that make up is clealry to look good externally for her husband.

Markz re your two pointers,

1) Yes I agree that for an addict my approcah may be dangerous. But who knows who is truely an addict and who is not.
2) I agree the more you feed that itch generally the worse it gets. But it has helped me enourmously to know that I have muterdika feeds for that itch. It lessens the itch. (The gemara calls it Pas baslao).

Markz re the other 1%.

No I often compliment my wife on other issues as well. I don't think I lack complimenting her in other stuff. Although its never enough.

Cordnoy,
Why does external affect love? Love is an inner thing. Yes one who is ugly or repulsive is hard to love because they disgust you not because of a sexual attraction. But someone who is normal why the external stuff. The answer is because loving ones wife is differnet than loving ones mother. Love for a spouse has to have some type of lust (or call it a sexual) attraction.