Markz wrote on 22 Nov 2016 00:58:

I think it's possible to go too far the other way. Explicit details of sexual acts are not appropriate for a public forum IMO.

I didn't see the deleted post you referred to, but a recent one was a bit graphic.

I don't know why I'm bothering again, but oh well. Let's give it a try.

Here's my intro. 12 Steps is great if it works for you, and whatever works for you, go for it. But-and this is a big deal- don't preach the twelve steps as being true, because there is nothing about them that has been proved true.

Go look up the five most effective ways to beat addiction in studies, go look at the comparison of CBT effectiveness vs 12 steps, go look for the proof that there is really scientific eveidence of a brain disease, go look at how many addicts spontaneously achieve sobriety, go watch Markz rat park video which is specifically making the point that we have the addiction theory all wrong and that when we give addicts a better life they will do better with addiction and when we shake and blame they will do worse. Go look up Gabor Mate and Stanton Peele.

Even if you're not into studies, stats, or any of the above, there is enough counter evidence to the brain disease model- and there is also enough evidence that the disease model actually makes some people relapse more- that it shouldn't be tossed around as a fact. Sometimes I get the feeling that some people think GYE is just an extension of SA; I get the feeling too sometimes- but it's not. I've gone to many therapists (too many $$$) who are not proponents of 12 steps, and some who are not because they believe it is the solution but because they believe it is a great program for personal growth (one therapist who had been in 12 steps for fifteen years told me that he takes the good parts and doesn't believe the rest.

Again, if it works for you, go for it, but please don't shove it down everyone elses's throat as a fact.

The reason I used to masturbate and watch pornography is I was bored, lonely, sad, and full off shame, and it was geshmak, and I blamed my life on my wife. The reason why I don't for now is because I've done a lot of healing.

The reason why I could fall after ninety days or ten years proves nothing about a disease. I can stop biting my nails for years, as I did, and bite after seven years and before I know it, I'm biting again. Same with a million other habits. Same with Lashon Hara, kaas, overeating- habits re part of your brain, and once you acquire them it is super hard to break ANY habit. That doesn't mean you have a disease; it means you made a big mistake to acquire that habit in the first place, and of course you'll be more susceptible than someone who never had the habit, but that proves nothing.

To sum up- maybe one has a brain disease, maybe one doesn't, maybe there is such a thing, maybe there isn't. Please be careful how you state it as fact. And allow everyone whatever works for them, of course including 12 steps.

Peace out; sorry for the rant but this has been brewing for a long time.

I am going to piggy back my feelings on your post. I don't know enough about 12 Steps do agree or disagree with your statement. I do feel however that there are parts of your post that ring true to me. 

As a newbie and recent boarder, i don't think it would be appropriate for me to come out against the "GYE Big Names", however, I think that there may be different approaches that may be appropriate for different people.

I think we can all agree that not everyone, that has had struggles with P+M has a sex addiction. Similar symptoms don't mean that we all share the same diagnosis. As the scientists like to say, correlation does not imply causation. If that premise is correct, then the remedy is not the same for everyone. The treatment for someone with bad habits is not necessarily helpful or appropriate for someone that has an addiction, and visa versa. 

As I stated above, I am not here to judge the comments and feedback of those that find that 12 Steps works for them. I just want to point out that, for this problem the solution is not necessarily the same for all people here. Everyone that is on GYE, may have a problem Guarding their eyes, but not everyone here is a sex addict. 

WG, I'll try to make my point one last time and I believe we probably agree on this although we might disagree - respectfully - on other points.

All I'm saying is that addicts are different, while non addicts are up against evil and yetzer hora, addicts are up against a condition that needs to be treated/healed. There are many different ways of dealing with it, depending on the condition, and what works for one addict will not necessarily work for another addict, but it's a condition nevertheless - not evil.

Do we agree on this?

Mr WG is a guy I'd like on my private call.

Workingguy wrote on 22 Nov 2016 15:30:

I think Cord' used to have a message
"No tea? Try coffee"

Whatever that was - it was brewed very very well and a good share too 

If anyone needs, the "Rat park" video WG Mentioned is hiding in the spoiler button below. 

KEEP ON TRUCKING!!

YidFromMonsey wrote on 22 Nov 2016 16:31:


Not exactly. I don't consider non-addicts evil, and if one considers acting out evil it is often that the addict did the same act that the non-addict did, the same aveira at the same level, the difference just being now the addicted can't stop.

I will grant you that an addict needs something completely different because of his level of involvement that at this point he very little and sometimes no control over. I think I'm that we agree.

cordnoy wrote on 22 Nov 2016 17:14:

When's it going to be?

Workingguy wrote on 22 Nov 2016 19:13:

Don't know yet.

Workingguy wrote on 22 Nov 2016 19:12:

I said that non addicts are up against evil - meaning the YH - not that they are or that they're doing evil .....

My £0.02 - I agree that we shouldn't push SA. I am guilty of having done that and I'm truly sorry. It does more harm than good.

Some aspects of SA on the other hand, like honesty, open-mindedness, letting go, working on improving our relationships and living life on life's terms should be pushed. Why? Because it's so different form what most of us (myself included) had been trying for years and decades.

Most of us come with preconceived ideas about what we want to achieve and how we want to achieve it. Only problem is, it isn't working. So we ask for advice. And we get it. And it makes us angry and defensive. We argue with the very people we asked to help us. It happens all the time, it certainly happened in my thread. Just look at how much I argued with Dov!

The truth will set you free. But first it will tick you off.

People come here for help and we ought to give it to them, sometimes at the expense of being argued with.

The thing is though, these concepts are crucial to recovery, whether you choose to go to SA, therapy or a Rav.

You have to be honest with your therapist / SA / your Rav.
You have to be open-minded to suggestions from your therapist / SA / your Rav.
You have to let go of porn in therapy / SA / conversations with your Rav.
You have to work on improving your relationships in therapy / SA / conversations with your Rav.
You have to learn to live life on life's terms in therapy / SA / conversations with your Rav.

GYE suggests 20 progressive tools, SA and therapy are both mentioned (way down the list, I might add) - guardyoureyes.com/the-gye-program/20-tools 

Watson wrote on 22 Nov 2016 21:12:



Here are a few more lines from the song quoted in my sig:

Thanks Shlomo!

Watson,

That was very well put.

My 2 pesos: I talk a lot about things that are related to 12-step. Reason being? That's my experience! I don't know how else to get sober without my program! So of course all of my posts will be related to 12-step, it's the only thing that worked for me! I'm not exactly going to share things that don't work. However, I want to echo what Sherlock was saying. I don't tell people to join SA. I think that many of the tools are applicable to others, even without the program as a whole. I believe surrender, honesty, action etc. are all things that can help others. Personally, I have had a very positive experience with SA, and I'm a big fan of 12-step. To each their own, but my personal belief, and this is NOT a reflection of experience, is that 12-step is beneficial for all. If someone says they had a negative experience then I understand that and I believe them. Which is why I'm not telling people to join, because who am I to proclaim that I know what is best for others. TBH, I might judge some people who say that it didn't work for them, but I'm an imperfect person and I'm working on myself. I, in no way, reflect the opinions of 12-step.