138eagle wrote on 26 Nov 2024 23:29:

Whatever it is , I'll have some two ( or three for that matter)

KUTHWMF

Can you please expand on this ? 

chaimoigen wrote on 27 Nov 2024 00:36:

My favorite sentence! Certainly.

Basically, there's a difference between not acting out, and doing the inner work to create a new way of life. Not acting out is being sober, even if the only reason you're not acting out is because your wife drop-kicked you so hard your hands fell off. Recovery requires changing your way of thinking and your way of living. Perhaps because GYE is structured around the ninety days chart, there's no emphasis on here about the difference between the two stages. And I think that's a real problem for two reasons.

First, many people need to pick their head above water for a bit before they can start really working. They need a few weeks of not acting out before they can think properly about the sugya. There should be an emphasis on just getting a few days in at all costs in order to start  working on it. I was definitely like this for a long time, and I think it would've been helpful for someone to tell me back in the beginning, "Just force yourself to get a month clean and then start thinking".

Second, there are people who have gotten sober for longer, but never worked on recovery. The stereotype is someone who's filtered to the max and is okay, but the second he has extended access to unfiltered internet he falls. Or the guy who is okay for the 90 day streak and then by day 93 he's right back in it. (And stereotypes aside, there are many people like this.) That's because he didn't take advantage of the sober time to do the inner work of recovery. He used external tools or sheer willpower to hang on, but has not changed his way of thinking, his mehalech haChaim.

If I was in charge, I'd divide the 90 day chart in half. The first half would be all about sobriety: just filtering up, accountability, TAPSHICHs, streaks etc. Just forcing yourself to be clean long enough to take a breath and start thinking. Then the second half would turn to recovery. Find the joy in being clean, understand your urges and triggers and learn long term different responses, change your way of life. I think many people would benefit from an understanding and emphasis on the two different phases.

redfaced wrote on 27 Nov 2024 00:31:

Quantity over quality baby.
Maybe I'll run out and buy some woodford The only other thing I have in the house is green apple vodka, and that doesn't seem majestic enough.

What does KUTHWMF stand for?

I know what MF stands for, but kinda think it's something else here....

Keep up the hard work my friend?

chosemyshem wrote on 27 Nov 2024 14:14:

After my second time hitting 90 days I viewed recovery as a three step process. 1) Break the habit, basically what you called sobriety. breaking out of the cycle. 2) Address the root cause, Basically figure out why you got hooked and address it however it needs to be addressed, for me it was therapy that helped me tap into me inner self and discover all the uncomfortable beliefs I had about myself. somewhere within the first 2 steps you engage in healthy lifestyle choices including, sleep, exercise, eating habits, connections with friends and family, outlets, and investing in things which are meaningful to you. 3) For the married folk, and honestly probably the bochurim too, reframe your view of intimacy in marriage and generally fix up your marriage cause it probably needs it. (Hardest step for me)
Not sure if I would break up the 90 days like you suggested, I found after the 90 days I started using GYE+ to get healthier which worked for me. But there's definitely value do your idea. Just have something beyond the 90 days.

It stands for “keep up the good work my friend!”

I appreciate your clarification. 

I know I might be beating up a straw man, and I agree that all the points you made are valid. However, where in tarnation would you get the idea (that I think you implied) that these concepts are Chiddishim limited to SA? That GYE advocates white-knuckling to 90, and that’s it. Huh? The forums are filled with posts  about people who fell and attributed it to the limitations of white knuckling, harsh posts about the limits of “mere” accountability; abd about how filters aren’t the solution. You got to do the work. Thats a huge theme here.

The question is a what is “the work”? That’s a great question. Indeed.

​I agree that formalizing the idea of the different stages of cleanliness is a great idea. But it’s not so simple because you can’t often clearly see the threshold you stepped over until you’re on the other side. Sometimes all you have is to work on another day.. another step towards becoming a different person, another step towards Tahara and freedom… not sure that more charts and trackers will help more…

These hallowed forums are full of the stories of people who have slowly changed their way to recovery, one step at a time. I don’t like when people put down GYE, cause I love this place, and I owe it so much. 

No one has a monopoly on the right way to change, there are as many pathways as there are people. Here, there are many people, ourselves included, who are struggling along, and learning a little more each day. I bless everyone I’ve learned from, and every bit of experience that’s shared.

Some guys spend years trying all sorts of things but don’t do the real work needed to change. True. I don’t think thats the fault of GYE. Plenty of guys in SA  don’t really work the Steps either, just keep showing up to the meetings and talking about how they need to learn to surrender (though it’s more likely someone will bop you on the head there).
I think that the problem of going through the motions, trying external fixes, and not really changing has to be owned by the person who isn’t changing. 

The truth is that changing is very hard. And no one can tell you how to do it, each of us needs to learn how to do it ourselves. With the help of Hashem. With His help, we’ll be ok. Whatever method we find works, or whatever combination. With His help, we’ll find recovery. And be ok. 

And so will you be, my good and special rock-star friend. 

KUTGWMGFAKOMT

CO

You are indeed beating up a straw man (but doing a darn good job of it). 

I was not putting down GYE in any way, ch"v, or comparing it to SA. I was pointing out that there are clearly two separate statuses (or three. Great point HP.) SA makes a point of defining those two statuses. GYE doesn't explicitly define them. Of course the stereotype of the guy white knuckling to 90 is just a stereotype (meaning something that is exaggerated but sometimes true), and GYE encourages the inner work too.

But while everyone works at their own pace, and the line between the two statuses is very blurry (and the idea of splitting the 90 day chart is an exaggeration) I do think it would be very helpful for those two statuses (stati?) to be known as separate things, and for that to become baseline knowledge on GYE. That is all.

KUTFW(AOF,TT)MFARWCIMTFG

Can you guys please talk english???

Or at least point me to the dictionary???

138eagle wrote on 27 Nov 2024 22:18:

Do you mean CYGPTE????? OALPMTAD???

138eagle wrote on 27 Nov 2024 22:18:

KeepUpTheFineWork(ArtOfFreedom,TakehTakeh)MitFeelingAwesomeRightWithChoosemyshemInMasteringTheFightingGeneration

Probably 

138eagle wrote on 26 Nov 2024 23:29:

I think I have the answer...
chooseurname wrote on 27 Dec 2023 15:13:

138eagle wrote on 27 Nov 2024 22:18:

Here's the only dictionary I'm familiar with...

proudyungerman wrote on 28 Nov 2024 01:25:

BOURBON! count me in