Hi, I'm gyeuser444, and though I'd rather not 'introduce myself', for the reason I will soon mention, I'm doing so to taking a stand for the people on this forum who wish to remain anonymous and not be shamed into submission, in addition to this being the very thing plastered all over the GYE ads and videos.

In my opinion there is no shame in having a little shame. Seforim say to talk your problems over to your friends, don't leave anything out, it's a great segula. But they don't force you to choose specific people to 'be your friends'. Really, to me it's very much ironic and unreasonable to open up to people who so strongly express that you need to open up, and take issue with you opening up or not opening up at your terms and speed. Even and especially when the logic is that otherwise it will enable you to have an incentive to continue your unhealthy activities and be otherwise dishonest. To me, because of the moral importuning involved, besides for being offensive, such an approach actually seems to move a step away from self sufficiency, and towards codependency. I don't have a problem with people opening up, it's fine, it's great. And believe it or not, I believe in it too. My problem is I don't feel like it would be fair to myself to open up until people stop having expectations to do just that. And I think it's an entirely reasonable problem to have.

I'm not naming names, but it's not because this is a passive aggressive play, and I don't believe I'm chasing a phantom. I'm open to having been mistaken about specific cases or individuals, but will not apologize for this having been my general impression that I have received upon first arriving here, and still afterwards from reading more of what has been written here. And I also reserve the right to assume that there are other newcomers and not so newcomers who take issue with this as well. I reserve the right to make minimal assumptions, express myself, and learn as I go.

I've 'given' a few 'eitzas' here and there to a few people already from my humble opinion and experience. I don't feel any guilt in not opening up about myself first. I do see an issue with that in an ideal context, but even then only in a personally directed way. But not at all in the current context. Only once people stop expecting other people to open up on those people's terms, and not in the name of unconditional respect, will I allow myself to start feeling guilty for not reciprocating.

The real truth is that I have already said a number of personal things. But this is only an extra point, it's relatively technical. My main point is what I find essentially wrong with the attitude.

If people don't want to take what I have to say seriously, that's their prerogative. But in the light of the above, I wouldn't fully understand it, as long as what I write is not disrespectful.

In fact, what I'm doing when I'm 'giving eitzas' is trying to be as respectful as possible, because I don't want to force anyone to say anything they don't want to say. I actually find any other approach to be disrespectful. And instead of pontificating, I'm essentially sharing insights from my experience. In fact, in addition to my bewilderment at what I've already expressed, I actually have a hard time understanding how it is possible to stomach some of the words said here that are in the name of love, and may very much be, but often enough with a hint of disapproval, which though seemingly subtle, nevertheless inevitably implies a glaring and disincentivizing limitation to the love.

If you disagree, feel free to tell me so, and please don't forget to tell me why. I will try to be as respectful as possible and not malign anyone.

For the sake of emes and peace, which are not contradictions, please feel free not to introduce yourself. Though I think if enough people express that they agree with the above words it will be refreshing enough to allow us to be more open, which would serve everyone's interest.

In conclusion, I don't think there's anything wrong with people who don't want to open up, nor with people who do open up, nor with people who give eitzas. And I think there is something wrong with people requesting other people to open up when it's pushy or insistent, and even and sometimes especially when it can be misinterpreted to be pushy or insistent (within reason of course).

I promise you 1 thing: People gain respect here primarily by sharing their life and day to day story - no other way.
Your advice will be heeded and upheld when you do so
PLEASE JOIN US

Before I begin, i will state the obvious that never is anyone pushed to write on the forum anything whatsoever - that whole idea is stupid

Now 444,

You write "The real truth is that I have already said a number of personal things"
I read most of what you have written recently - I don't see anything!!!!!!
Until you show me a personal thing you said I will have to quote your sharp words on the chat "you can tell me otherwise. until then i reserve the right to assume otherwise. its 100% natural" and therefore say to you I have the right to assume you're being dishonest

I take offence at your tone of voice, sorry
You claim "submission": That is total fabrication and totally dishonest
Yours is complaint directed at 2 people. Dov and Myself

Dov on the public chat invited you to private chat, or to phone him
GEEEEEEEEEE, I WAS NEVER HONORED WITH SUCH A REQUEST FROM DOV

And to call that submission, when he never demanded anything from you?
Something isn't right... and not with Dov I can assure you

Myself: I do not take any personal offence to anything you write, so please relax!
I'm being very open here
Among other things I wrote to you in the chat "The least I would expect you to say is "I struggle with some of that" or "I struggle with shemiras Einayim", something... If you can't talk even vaguely even under a hidden anonymous name, and yet you are giving people advice how to recover, is that ok with you user444?"

My greatest concern with your posts isn't that you're giving advice, rather that you are giving advice that is way off. A newcomer came on recently to the chat and you advised him to listen to shiurim or something in that range. Your recent posts on the forum have been in the same vein. You may have scared that newcomer off GYE.
He wanted to learn something new, and you may have given him an impression that this is GYE recovery, and he could be saying "Oh cool - that sucks. I've tried all that and this is what's suggested in GYE too? Ok, Back to porn.com, because there's no hope for me"

That is not a recovery tool. Unless you share that it works for you.
I will have to assume you have a level of addiction that doesn't really conform to the sexaholics that are on GYE
My concern?
HOW CAN YOU GIVE ADVICE IF YOU DO NOT HAVE ANY LEVEL OF ADDICTION

Look on top of the page it says The forum is to "See what others are doing to stay clean"
In my humble opinion if you never get dirty, It doesn't make sense to be giving advice

In my humble opinion if you never get dirty, you have no right to berate Dov in the Chat for talking in a language that conforms to the sexaholics that are on GYE

Dov is real, he uses language that is real, and his recovery is real and honest
Please respect him and all us jerks

just two questions to you 444
1) are you over 18
2) are you married?
 

rebyid31 wrote:

Reb Yid you're sounding like a Mashgiach now :-)

Disclaimer: Gye444 between me and you, you do not have to answer Rebyids question as it may be disclosing too much info, and I would not have answered his question either shortly after joining gye. 
I just wanted to point out that it is a different discussion, to what I wrote to you in the previous post

gyeuser444 wrote on 03 Jun 2016 11:09:


444,
You're lost is very confusing. It's clearly referring to all sorts of things that probably the people who you are talking to understand, but in your desire for anonymity and privacy there's so many veiled references and double talk that it's hard to figure out. But here's my take.

1) Who are you? Whether you or I or we like it or not, there are more experienced and senior members in the forum. Just the way it is. It's like that in 12 step groups and anywhere you go. You're entitled to your own opinion and entitled to even promote it, but as I'm choosing which candidate to vote for- you or the other guys- I want to know what you're basing your post on. Is this good advice? Do you think it's helping people to remain super anonymous and not open up at all? If yes, can you tell me why you feel that way?

2) Having see the people who give bad advice, often without letting anyone here know what they are basing it on, I think it's totally justified to ask people to identify some of what they are going through before they offer advice to others. As someone with experience, I'm concerned for others, and if you offer the same bad advice so many people do, you may be hurting them.

3) Almost everyone here has seen someone come on and promote "lemaan HaShem" approaches of listening to shiurim, learning more, and all sorts of other things. It's been discussed ad nauseum, but we haven't really seen pretty much anyone who was struggling have that solve his issues.

4) What COULD you share that can make the rest of us feel more comfortable? You're asking to remain anonymous bc it makes you feel uncomfortable otherwise, but it makes us uncomfortable knowing that there is someone here who might not even struggle, is downloading our stories, and feeling good giving advice at our expense and shame. So what can you tell us? Are you a struggler or not? Married or not? Male or not? Jewish or not? SSA or not? Something? Anything? Even if I wanted to take an eitzah from you, I wouldn't unless you can tell me if you know that it's worked somewhere- by you, your friend, or your friend's uncle.

So when you make me feel less uncomfortable with insisting on sharing nothing and still being around by perhaps sharing soemthing about yourself, I'd feel more comfortable having you around. Till then, do whatever you'd like but probably don't come with such strong demands. Of course, my opinion only.

markz dear 
I wasn't trying to interrogate him. and by knowing if he is over 18 and married does not disclose any info of a person.
the reason i asked was because i have a feeling that he is a 16 year old that has not had any challenges in life yet and comes up here to dominate chusheve yiden who are struggling for years!! do you understand me now?? 

Let the guy open up if/when he feels like it - on his schedule.
We're here to be supportive, not to tell him how to do things.

Skep
what you wrote hit the nail on the head

Reb user444
You come across to me as a caring person who tries to take other people's feelings into consideration
No one can dictate if you or anyone else should be giving advice, or sharing all or part of their story

What I was upset about, and the impetus for my long post on top of the page, was because skep just wrote


I beg of you please - be supportive of everyone on gye, even of Dov (whom you complained about in the chat Jun 2 5:23pm)

So many GYEs are sober and live life thanks to Dov
He was even featured in the recent Mishpacha Mag.

So... same to you!
KUTGW and you may get a positive mention in the Mishpacha too (for the right price)

from last week?

Gyeuser444 hello,

I hear your point and i would totally agree with the main point your making about the opening up - but I believe the the way "they" are doing it is definitely a better way. My background - like you, never want to open up on a real personal level, it's just my personality the info I give is usually thought out. I choose what I want to say and what I want to keep private. Anything wrong with that?no. However I've been involved on this site probably 8-10 years (now sure - when the mechitza was put up) because of my own struggles with all aspects of SA- I may know alot of the info and even made lots of progress of being clean for months or years at a time.. however I leave the site and find myself back here dealing with the issues again sometimes in worse conditions then before, basically bringing me to the idea of I would probably never be free. So what is the main point  between myself and some other guys that have been clean for years why do I keep on having these falling on my face after years of being "out of it" I would say very simply 2 things. Because I have deal with sa as a issue or Tavah that I deal with but don't bring myself fully into it with it (ie. I decide what to share and what not in order to keep myself really anonymous. Even on phone with chaim duvid,Steve and dov I have participated but minimal to protect myself) i find my self in a position that it seems like it's not working long term.  The two things I see that the guys that are staying in  recovery to the guys like me that keep in bouncing back.. is. Full disclosure and humility which I think are probably intertwined and a sponsor/chevra/real life people that are on speed dial on a regular basis and just good friends that keep each other in the loop.
I find when I fallback the first thing that gets me out is opening up  (iI do it anonymously- it helps me a bit - but I'm sure it would be much better if I had a real person to talk too).
To some it up..I've been in your school of thought for years (Not fully by choicechoice but haven't gottengotten over my personality comfort and arrogant in real life to lower myself ) but I would never tell someone else to use this method because I can attest to it not working well.

Sorry for this sloppy message I hate replying by phone.. hope u get the gist 

Thanks for the responses. I'll try to address what I can.

Workingguy wrote on 03 Jun 2016 16:45:


Hi Workingguy,
I base my opinions on how logically sound a post seems. I don't particularly care about seniority or experience, unless all else is equal, nor who are the winners and losers. If something critical is missing from my post let me know.


This site isn't the fruit of my efforts, but I believe in being enabling and available, but not presumptuous nor pushy, towards people I don't know anything about, until they lead me to think otherwise. I already explained why I feel it doesn't work the other way. It doesn't help. And if it does, it's forced, which doesn't work in the greater scheme of things.

While I only know that some people don't much care for it, there are probably certain people who are glad to be reached out to and given a nudge, and after all, they came here for a reason. But once that borders on insistence, it completely loses it's purpose. It's true, some people may appreciate the insistence, they are very humble, but in my mind, they are too humble. They are allowing people to indulge their not so perfect traits at other people's expense, and really at their own expense as well.

This isn't a clinic, so I think it's a natural risk that's run when you have something like a forum or public chatroom. I think the notion that these aren't professionally reviewed opinions is a given, and it's probably also written in a few places on this site in the form of a disclaimer. And since it's anonymous, what kind of credibility do you really get from identifying what they are going through? To strengthen this point, theoretically people can also lie, if they are so inclined because of an agenda. (And if they're hesitant to open up, it can mean they have a conscience.) Also, if they don't let anyone know what they're basing their ideas on, you can simply ask, which is more to the point, instead of asking what they're going through.
(This is in contradistinction to insistence or disapproval which can make someone feel uncomfortable or hurt.)

Another point is that you if you are discerning you can pick up that the person is speaking from personal experience. And if you're not sure, why not give them the benefit of the doubt? (More on this at a later time.)

Some cases are obviously not like this. But that's only because the people betrayed a pretense or gross error, not because the default assumption is that people aren't credible until proven otherwise. This allowance is due to the open nature of a forum, which is different from a more official place. And in my opinion a selfish pretense of giving advice is much less harmful than a 'well meaning', but not well enough, insistent or disapproving pretense.

I described a similar but in my mind more valid concern in my post. We certainly have to look out for people so that they don't get hurt, which is why I wrote the post in the first place.

In my short experience, I've seen a few people express how some of these things have helped them, and others who also asked people to just live and let live. So I hope by 'we' you don't actually mean almost everyone here.

I'll try to address some more points later.

gyeuser444 wrote on 05 Jun 2016 13:32:


You write very strongly about why you think what you see as pushing is wrong and how it loses its purpose once it seems insistent.

Who defines insistent? How do you know people don't find it a helpful? Is this your hypothesis/assumption that people feel it's pushy, or have you spoken to many people who feel that way?

I've watched this forum for a while and just observed- didn't want to be a chacham before I knew what was actually going on. And I've seen this method of people reaching out to others create great bonds and lots of helpful relationships. I've also seen people ask to remain anonymous, and no one bothered them.

Your post and opinions and chat seem to be based on a lot of assumptions and not necessarily a lot of real experience here. Can you elaborate on why you're making all the assumptions? I read through your whole chat with Dov; Dov is sometimes inflammatory but there was nothing that I could discern of what you wrote and accused him of.

Dov is revered and respected here, and I'd imagine some of the many people he's helped here would find it extremely offensive that you are accusing him of things that you have no basis to assume. I am not a Talmid of Dov's, although I did speak to him once in the phone for an hour and he's tons of fun and very funny, smart, and very knowledgable in Torah. I've disagreed with him many times on the forum, sometimes strongly. He doesn't respond strongly, and often just leaves it alone. Which is pretty impressive.

And you write that you are allowed to assume even though you know you may be wrong and that you can say and be told off.

You can't assume, you're a frum Jew and can't be חושד בכשרים.

And as ridiculous as you find the idea of being pushed to share as you say it, I find the idea of having a forum where you say inflammatory things without knowing and then just be told off absurd. I don't personally like inflammatory statements, and I also don't want to be told off. So I don't see why that way is better.

But the main point- if you would sit tight with some humility- not the fake one you accuse people of having but a real one of acknowledging that you may not understand how everything works here and just watch and see how other people are reacting to the things that you are, you may find that things are very different than you think.

If someone were to try to cajole me into calling them when I first joined GYE, I probably would have left.
Had someone tried to push me to write my story and post it on the forum, I wouldn't have listened.

But that's just me.

 

skeptical wrote on 06 Jun 2016 00:53:


Probably me too. That's not the point here though. I wouldn't start offering advice before I became part of the chevra and established credibility. Not because anyone else cajoled me but because when in Rome...

And I would certainly not attack anyone based on my own understanding.

And no one cajoled him much from what I read on that chat.

My first posts in order of posting:

guardyoureyes.com/forum/1-Break-Free/202082-Dear-Yetzer-Tov#202088
guardyoureyes.com/forum/1-Break-Free/202078-issues-withholding-me-any-advice#202125
guardyoureyes.com/forum/19-Introduce-Yourself/200901-Will-you-let-others-get-well-too-now#202176
guardyoureyes.com/forum/2-What-Works-for-Me/102639-Blow-it-up?limit=15&start=15#202307
guardyoureyes.com/forum/1-Break-Free/136992-I-need-help?limit=15&start=75#202331
guardyoureyes.com/forum/19-Introduce-Yourself/202385-HELLO-I-would-like-to-introduce-myself#202386

It wasn't for another few months that I wrote anything about myself. I posted when I felt comfortable posting whatever I wanted to post.