Hashivalisesonyishecho wrote:
Hishavta li my senses, and my vote swings again

eslaasos wrote:


Thank you.

Personally, knowledge never helped me stay sober. I never masturbated because I forgot it was wrong. But if this discussion helps other people stay sober then I'm all for it.

From a religious point of view yes but otherwise it is a way of life. Its hard not to. Its not that it's impossible though

Watson wrote:


I didn't say that I forgot it was wrong, but sometimes the temptation is not to masturbate but to start the trip.
For me, if I watch movies or read secular books I know it will make me feel disgusting and would potentially lead to a fall so that's one of my main battlefields. I hope to stay away from them and at the initial stages, the logic helps me. Once I start down that road, logic is irrelevant, which is why I need to stay far away.

I hope someone finds this discussion helpful.

eslaasos wrote:


Of course we do.
Perhaps one day we will meet for a tea or a pint to discuss further.
May I suggest Piccadilly Circus or Leicester Square?
I will dye my hair orange to fit in.....oops, what hair?

You know my weaknesses, so that's below the belt.

eslaasos wrote:


I didn't say you said you forget it's wrong.

Then again, you didn't say I said you said you forget it's wrong.

selfishness feeds lust which feeds selfishness... ... - an endless circle

Which is why the common שורש of גאוה and תאוה is אוה.
They are intertwined one another



You can start from minute 11, and if you like gematria there are some pearls to be found here

Thanks to Torahanytime
Forgive me for lowering the sound quality to enable upload

Cords,

Sorry I have been out for a while,

Again how does this relate to steps 4 & 5? What does lust have to do with "others"?

Please explain this question

Part of the steps of ridding lust is to write out how we harmed and resented others and let go of it. My understanding is that this is a lead up. First we realize we are selfish and lust harmed others. Then we try to rectify our behavior. Because since the underlying reason why we lusted was due to this midda of not caring about others, once we start caring about others we won't lust.
Even if its not the underlying midda but since when we lust we don't care about others by starting to care about others we won't lust anymore

And so basically my understanding is that recovery is based on the notion that we harmed others. that's why I pose the question that I don't see how the root (or shorosh) of lust harmed others nor do I see that an outcome of lust necessarily harmed others. Whats more even in the instances when we did harm others it wasn't that we didn't care about others feelings. It was more that we had this almost coffee/ addiction like addiction called lust. So even when we harmed others it bothered us that we harmed others. Does it even bother a selfish person when he harms others. Henceforth I don't get the whole concept of this recovery and how it relates to ridding oneself of lust.

And yes I know people say you just have to do the recovery without asking questions. But that's a very odd thing to say. Because its not a physical thing like take medicine without asking questions how it cures. Its all a mental thing. The idea is to work your mind and connect the dots so that you don't lust when in my mind the dots don't connect.

This is why its important to discuss did we harm others. Perhaps I should post a new survey with a simple question stating, "must we harm others when we lust?" Because to me name calling is not relevant to recovery. So whether this is the way Webster titches selfish or its not the correct titch is really a futile irrelevant topic to me.

Suffice it to say that I'm far from being the expert on the 12 steps around here. But to me you are over simplifying the 4th step to be dealing just about hurting others.

There are at least two other major components at play.

1. Resentment, self centeredness and selfishness are what "feed" the addiction, when we are focused on our selves and our resentments we have the need to act out to calm our pain.

2. By cleaning house we are readying ourselves to be the recipients of a spiritual experience, which is the corner stone of recovery.


Therefore the whole issue "are we really hurting others" isn't that central to the fourth step.

9494 wrote:


Explain

waydown wrote:


There really is nothing new being said here.
Thread going in circles.
I don't convince people to join program.
I do try explaining stuff, but here, it has been fulfilled.

B'hatzlachah

9494 wrote:


Explained

9494 wrote:

I relate, I was in one fellowship that analyzed the steps and the literature to death. They made it like gemara. Did it help their sobriety? I don't think so, there was not a lot of sobriety in those rooms. The fellowship that I am in now is much more desperate and just like, "Screw it, if this works then I'm doing it, I need my life back," and there's a lot of sobriety in this fellowship.

ok, I'm sure this has been quoted somewhere on the forums before, but goggle definition of selfish is


One does not need to be hurting others in order to be called selfish.
When I am eating pizza for any reason other then having energy to help others or serve Hashem (which is usually the case by me with pizza) I am "lacking consideration for others; concerned chiefly with my own personal profit or pleasure."
When I am going on a trip for any reason other then clearing my mind in order to help others or serve Hashem I am "lacking consideration for others; concerned chiefly with my own personal profit or pleasure."
When I am mz'l for any reason I am "lacking consideration for others; concerned chiefly with my own personal profit or pleasure."

Being 100% selfLESS is a beautiful thing, but lets be realistic, Most people are not holding there now.