Thanks for your explanation, I'm still confused,
If I'm using a gartel to shlep my sikka panels is it lust because I'm using the gartel for what it is made for?
If it's because I'm taking advantage of a human being making him for a object, that's bizoiyen habriyos but not lust, so what is lust? What's the 'vurt'?

Gettingcloser wrote:


Why can't lust contain bizoiyen habriyos in it?

Again, I am not an expert at this, lust is sex not used for sex. It is used to accomplish someone's selfish desire to feel a pleasurable rush. Masturbating is lustful because the only desires involved are completely selfish and for the person to get a "hit". When I look at a women with lust that means that I am objectifying her, I want her for X and Y. She isn't even in the picture at all. She's just an object.

There are others on this site that know this better then me. Maybe they will comment.

Without going deep into the topic, R' Shlomo is saying very correct, lust is being selfish, and another thing that is lusting, is when we bring in to the bedroom all the shmutz we saw and try to implement it thinking about OUR pleasure.
oh how we wish we could just erase everything and start from fresh.

One small example that separates the true lover from the luster;

Many a wife like mine are often too tired even on Mikva night

A luster would cajole twist and convince his partner to be partially awake so as fulfill his lust every night or 2 that he possibly can.

A lover could ask his wife;

"Darling I want to get together with you but only when you can enjoy it which is when you're not tired. How about we plan for only once a week and that day you try rest in the afternoon? Friday night you're always too tired, so forget about that night..."

I believe lusters would have a hard time doing this

Thanks Belmont you made it very clear, I would like to add that if bring all shmutz in bedroom even if the wife wants to satisfy her husband & she's going to do everything he desires she will be unsuccessful, because sheker is not satisfying, so she is doing all chazerei & she's not even gaining anything out of it

markz wrote:


That's a very good start, but you know something....even that is lusting....much better than before though.

I cannot even do the above.

Like most things, I think it a matter of degree. We all have some lust in our relations with our wives, and hopefully some love. The idea is to try to change the degree.

In short:
Lust is taking, Love is giving.

On one extreme, a person fantasizes about something, and then uses his wife to act it out. He is merely satisfying his own fantasy. It's all lust.

To try to explain the other side, intimacy out of love, I'll try an example. Let's say you just found out that your wife is pregnant. It is an emotional time and you both feel close. At that time, relations will probably have a higher degree of love, and less lust. You will not focus only on the pleasure you are getting, but on the one you love, and you will feel a closeness and connection.

Obviously, it's different for everyone. I'm just trying to give an example that some may relate to. Some on the forum, rarely, if ever, have relations out of love, so it may not make as much sense to them.

I'm pretty sure there are some dov quotes on this topic. Check out the link in my signature.

It's a true point that sex is about giving, but I think that a wife wants to see her husband excited & having his needs met,

In marriage in general the husband is the giver, but he has to build up himself to be comfortable with himself & with his sexual needs if not the wife is not going to feel any value in the love he gives her

I've Seen people who used to be addicted to sex & because their shame & guilt & their self doubt they only wanted to please their wives in bedroom without thinking about their own needs

Let's not forget we are human beings & hashem created us with ugly desires & let's face that fact, a human being is a combination of a nefesh habahami & nefesh elokei, we have to feed our internal bahaima...

Gettingcloser wrote:


There is a Gemara somewhere that says, there is a small organ every man has, feed it and it gets hungrier, starve it and it is satiated. Not sure feeding the internal bahaima will work out so well...

I know plenty of gamsras that say different we need a rabbi who understands to these kind of struggles to tell us which gamara suits my personal situation,

I didn't say we should feed the bahaima more than what it's important for him but we are allowed to feel comfortable that we are male & we have tavos (Maybe men should say the bracha sha-usani kirtzono......?)

Lots of addicts had traumatizing sex when they where young, some of them are not even aware of their negative feelings towards real healthy normal sex, so by telling that person to focus only on his wife you Might help him Avoid to face his pain which is very unhealthy
I'm not saying it's a rule & I totally agree with all magivim I only wanted to bring out my point not to misunderstand the the duty of a husband

Thank you, would you like to share the other gemoros?

Alex,

"We need to view sex as optional."

Its hard to view sex as optional when its our duty and part of our kesuba to have tashmish. I know I can't mix judiasm into the life of addict but I still believe its part & parcel.

One more pointer, offcially the cathloic church views sex and marraige as optional for priests. We see how good that worked out. (I will not spell out the scandals but hamvin yavin.) Yes we can live our lives without it but...

waydown wrote:


I can't imagine Alex meant it that way.

Having read his threads, I think it's clear that what he's saying sex is optional in the context of we don't need to satisfy the urge. It's not like food that our body tells us we need it, and it's true that without food we will die. We can live without sex.

Obviously, in a marriage there is a chiyuv of onah, which is irrelevant to this conversation which is about lust.

Belmont,

"lust is being selfish"

Here is how I define selfish. Selfish is when I can control an action and not commit that action yet I choose to do it despite the fact that I know it will harm others.

Lust is something we can't control. Thus even if harms others ist not selfish .

Perhaps self centered is more grammatically correct.

You are correct I defined Alex explanation wrong. My bad.