ShmaYisroel wrote:


the "poster child" for a child molester is:

ShmaYisroel wrote:


Hi ShmaYisroel,

I listened to a shiur from Rabbi Twerski yesterday (on this site) that addresses your posts.

To paraphrase - you are always accountable for your actions unless you are psychotic and divorced from reality. He has a great line to help you understand that. Imagine you were sitting by your PC, looking at something inappropriate, Cordnoy walks in with a Desert Eagle .50 points it at you and says take a hammer and smash your CPU or I shoot, you would immediately discover your ability to overcome the YH.
So there is always bechira.

To continue this thought and answer your other point, he explains that the 12 steps are actually all to be found in the Torah. So why does the 12 steps help where Torah and mussar doesn't? Because when you join a 12 step program, you hear people say if I deviate one iota from this program I will be DEAD. When you learn mussar, most of us are happy if we say, wow that's something I really need to work on, and make a plan of action how one day we will get there.
If we learnt mussar with the attitude ki heim chayeinu to the full extent it would be as effective as the 12 steps program.

To answer your later post, a poster child means you are a perfect example.

Hatzlacha.

"I hope that I can get out of here without twelve steps and just a good dose of Mussar and limud HaTorah."

Please see my signature

waydown wrote:


Hi waydown,

You seem like an intellectual, and I generally don't start up with intellectuals, but I would ask you to clarify your post above.

As a frum Jew, we believe that we all have bechira. This is not a contradiction to the 1st step, see my previous post quoting from Rabi Twerski on this. I think what you're saying is that your yiras shomayim is not being negated by your addiction (for want of a better word), but your yiras shomayim is insufficient to overcome the addiction, in it's current state and in the current context.

My understanding of the 1st step is that we are powerless in the context of "my willpower alone is insufficient". There are other tools I need to employ in this battle.
There is an additional benefit to admitting powerlesness because people work better without pressure. The example I heard was that if you tried walking across a 12" wide plank of wood that is strung up in the air the height of the Empire State Building you would quite possibly fall, but you would have no problem taking that walk when it is laid flat on the ground. If you approach the battle all keyed up that you have to beat this monster, you have already spent half your strength on the anticipation as opposed to surrendering to Hashem and applying your willpower more productively.

With regard to the chazal you mentioned about needing Hashem's help to overcome the YH, I have mentioned to you previously that this is discussed by the Lev Eliyahu on the posuk of lapesach chatos rovetz. Essentially he cites contradictory statements from chazal and answers that there are 2 different Yetzer Hora's.
There is a natural physical YH that we are expected to overcome ourselves using the tool of borosi YH, borosi Torah tavlin. Then there is a spiritual/supernatural YH that it is impossible for us to overcome without Hashem's help.
I have spent a lot of time thinking of how to reconcile this with the 1st step, but I don't want to speak further on his behalf without reviewing the piece properly. I have been meaning to do so, but I have to give 2 shiurim tonight so all my spare time has been taken up. I hope to make time for it and then post my ramblings in my thread where it will await your critique.

Thank you ShmaYisroel for kicking off this discussion. Both waydown and I are attending a daily phone conference hosted by R' Cordnoy that has just finished discussing powerlesness, so this is very much on my mind recently.

The metaphor that has really put things in the right perspective for me is that, for addicts, lust (or alcohol, or drugs, or whatever) is an allergy. Once we're exposed to it, there's little we could do to prevent a reaction.

This ripped the issue of lust addiction from its intellectual context, which for me, a chronic overthinker, was essential to beginning the recovery process.

In fact, to a degree, letting others "think" for you on this is a good idea. Of course, there are nuances to your addiction others might not fully understand, so you could reserve some degree of autonomy with it. But in general, giving up control means giving up on the idea that this could be figured out.

Could you figure out a solution to an allergy?

eslaasos wrote:


Practicin' in Manitoba:

Hi ShmaYisroel
I just wanted to welcome you. There is so much good being said here that i'm just keep my mouth shut a little bit. (Before I do however,) I just wanted to comment on how refreshing honest your post have been sounding. Of course I don't actually know you to know that it's the truth, but I rings real.
Kol hakovod on your reaching out.
SG

cordnoy wrote:


Something about your voice on the phone, I pictured you with a beard. Oh well...

eslaasos wrote:


Had a picture of my partner shottin' a magnum 44, but she wasn't wearin' a coat, so I left it out.

About the beard, it must be recent, since this pic is only two weeks old...

Dear Cordnoy, stillgoing and eslaasos,


I really dont understand what these last say four or five posts are about, can you please explain?

Thanks
Shmayisroel

ShmaYisroel wrote:


Wasn't it you that started with cordnoy and his uzzi?

cordnoy wrote:


Sorry, that was me, and it was a Desert Eagle.

cordnoy mit a uzzi ahin, eslaasos mit a desert eagle aher (everybody duck!), but my friend ShmaYisrael is getting very lost... can someone show him the target please

eslaasos wrote:


And what weapon was pictured in my post ?