Shlomo24 wrote on 15 Apr 2019 16:42:

Thank you for clarifyin'.

As I wrote above, there is a question as to what to do when someone says, "I am doin' this," and he is absolute about it, and others think it is wrong. While I am not a posek, I believe that it in this case, nobody should tell you what to do or not to do (although they could as it's a public forum), but they/we can tell others that this is not a decision that we condone.

Thank you and Godspeed!

cordnoy wrote on 15 Apr 2019 16:49:

Just as I demand respect for my right to an opinion, I will respect everyone else's right to have an opinion. I'm just not going to be debating those opinions.

Thank you and Godspeed

Shlomo24 wrote on 15 Apr 2019 16:42:

Thanks for the clarification. 

Part of the reason I'm not debating. Nothing here has been edited:

Hi Shlomo24,

sbj5775 has sent you the following private message at Guard Your Eyes. Please log in to reply! https://guardyoureyes.com
__________________
Just went thru some of latest posts. Setting aside all human niceties and societal moral standards, I will be open and critical for you have been writing explicitly, with audacity, against Torah which is G-d's law for all Jews. I won't go into details about SSA or therapy. You may have valid points but there's really nothing to be impressed with your 'education'.  You may have experienced tremendous pain, and of course I'm not judging your attractions or experiences, and I can relate to the humanness you're trying to convey tow ards&nb p;communal restriction and ostracizing. There can be debate on how to approach and address such issues and the people effected by them. However to 'approve any choice' and (quietly ?) expect others to follow suit; to 'follow the G-d of your understanding' is just old reform non-sense clothed in a different color and flavor. You are either an apikoros and don't believe in Torah and subsequently you were 'porek ol' and you don't belong on GYE at all, or you may have had a positive connection with torah and Judaism and may want  t  hold on to some of it but you are 1) confused and 2) think too high of yourself vs. the 'closed' community. In any case what you wrote is simply apikorsos and against your Creator which places you out of league for further discussion untill you take those statements back. Remember: you are just a bit less smarter than you think you are. You have blind-spots even after all the inner work you have done. Don't let experiences or perceptions shape your life in a way you may very much regret. You are NOT smarter&n bsp;tha  everyone else.

Shlomo,I believe a private message author should remain nameless - he had the decency not to lambast you in the open forum. Can you remove his name? His point remains the same regardless...

The long and short rebuttal to the claim that “you do not belong on GYE at all” is very simple

I didn’t see one instance recently where you wrote audaciously against the Torah or your creator.

So what’s the guy’s problem?
That you openly admitted to practicing inappropriate behavior which according to the Torah is punishable by excommunication?

In that case - similar to Cordnoy’s comment - anyone that practiced porn and masturbation - according to some Torah sources is such a serious sin that Teshuva is not accepted and he’s got himself a 1 way ticket to hell. Zero Return Policy, and “does not belong on GYE at all”

Now, will all the “active” members (that fall and slip periodically) kindly pick up and leave...

Maybe there’ll be a minyan left here?

There’s no q’ that that wasn’t the intent of gye...

unless i understood shlomo wrong, than although he is still struggling with his sexual addiction, he has thrown in the towel on his ssa. which, unlike everyone else one gye, is extreme audaciousness against the torah and hashem. its not the openly admitting, its the (openly) saying "this part of the torah is not for me"

I would like to introduce another argument, and it is one that I didn't think of initially, and it teaches me a bit in regard to judgin' others.

This argument, I don't think Shlomo agrees with, and that's fine, it's really not intended for him.

Everyone has their guns blazin', for he said that although he's workin' on his sexual addiction towards other males, he nevertheless has come to terms with his sexuality, he is continuin' with his male partner and plans on tying the knot with him. And we are aghast.

I propose (and again, shlomo clearly does not subscribe to this view and I'm not sure I even think that it applies in this case, but who knows) that it is his addiction that is driving' his decision. You ask me: it doesn't make sense that he's workin' a recovery program but he throws in the towel on his life style, I say that you see how connivin' the addictive nature is.

One who is sexually addicted can convince himself that open marriage is the way to go;

one who is sexually addicted can convince himself that although he won't touch himself under his belt, he will visit an escort, for he needs sex and his wife is not givin' him any;

one who is sexually addicted will convince himself that it's better to routinely act out once a week rather than face the challenges of every moment;

one who is sexually addicted convinces himself that goin' to a meeting in a church or readin' from the 12 steps which was authored by a priest (or perhaps a cardinal) is אביזרייהו דע"ז, and therefore forbidden.

All of the above, many of us can tolerate on this site. Why? We all understand that addiction plays with the mind in ways that we can't even fathom.

But to such an extent (the scenario on this thread), that is beyond the realm. Hmmm.....

I think part of the issue, is that Shlomo says he wants to be a role model for someone who wants a spiritual lifestyle.

I don't recall anyone else who is doing something against what Hashem has told us in the Torah, saying they want to be a role model.

Personally, i don't think this is question for the moderators, i believe this is a question for the Rabbis who endorse GYE. I can hear that GYE will use Rabbis for general guidance and then have moderators decide the detail, but i think that this post of Shlomo is whole new level, it is not just a question of is it triggering or not etc.

I am not writing this to Shlomo. We have written each other many times and I count him among my friends. I can not change him though, and I will not try to. I am writing here about myself. This is an email response to another friend regarding Shlomo's post.

No Leib, my hurt was personal pain. You know that I too have ssa. For whatever reason Hashem made me far more attracted to males then females. I do not question why, this is my personal challenge. I am married with beautiful loving children. I love my wife as well, but I struggle daily with finding the romance in marriage. I believe that I would have a much more satisfying 'bedroom' if I was married to a man. But life's not about sex. (Pretty shocking coming from a sex addict, no?). I believe that I have a purpose in this world, and that is to stay sexually sober, and raise my family. It ain't easy and sometimes I cry from frustration, but I've got to be still going until it's over. To see someone else in a similar situation who I've often corresponded with over several years about our struggles just throw in the towel- and give up and then claim to be proud of it because it's too painful for him to face the truth kills me.
I should be proud, and others on this thread living the life they truly believe in despite the title current pulling us in the other direction. We don't claim an easy life, but when we are truly sober and think it through we know we're doing the right thing.
How come we don't make rallys. Sober Pride Parade. How come we have to hide, and when someone gives up we have to "understand" "respect his opinion". By posting such a provocative post, he's not respecting mine.

Let's start being Proud of our struggles! No one's perfect, but we can be Proud that we are trying and trying is truly all that we need to do if we're still going to be Winners!

Shlomo,

I re-read the post of yours, and realize that this line has a contradiction in terms

Shlomo24 wrote on 15 Apr 2019 06:40:


You can definitely be an example of someone who lives a spiritual life in the context of those who believe that your life choice is considered spiritual. I’m not going to debate that, or convince you otherwise. Maybe it took you 1 1/2 years to convince yourself of this - I don’t know, although I was surprised that it took you so long to share where you’re upto in life...

But to say that you can remove shame and be a spiritual light to the frum circle that does not consider homosexuality a spiritual lifestyle - isn’t honest, and the 1st Amendment of your BIG STEPS signature is honesty :-)

You possibly never meant it like that, rather were just saying that it’s hard for you to face the frum circle that defines spirituality a specific way.

#confused

Markz wrote on 17 Apr 2019 04:27:

Much of what you said I won't be commenting on due to my policy of avoiding debate about this. The only comment that I will make on this is that your first sentence is pretty close to what I meant when I wrote that. Just remember that I speak for myself, not for others. That's all I'll say for now. 

(Possibly more via Hangouts)

Shlomo24 wrote on 17 Apr 2019 04:34:

Where’s the respect?


on a side note (I hope Im not totally off the Mark here), inhibiting debates and the serious body armor avatar picture you have, signifies to me that there’s a big wall you have around to protect yourself from pain you’ve been through, and I’m under the impression you had some more recently. 

Its no fun, and I hope you find some relief in the near future. 

@markz Thank you for the kind words, but you can be rest assured my policy about debate has little to do with any pain I may or may not be experiencing

Also, I can't help but notice someone lowered my karma. I'm surprised I have any at this point 

Shlomo24 wrote on 15 Apr 2019 06:40:

All sympathy aside, I hope you fail. Although by "spiritual life" you probably were referrin' to the SA dictionary, many here at GYE equate this with torah observance. 

The frum circles, although I cannot speak for them all, are just fine with the way they are. They might need some tinkerin' here and there, but your number won't be on the top of their list, not just yet. Gevurah, Still Goin' and others will be on their speed dial. The frum circles do not want or care for open sexuality, any type.

T'was mentioned above that you might be in pain and you seemed to have denied that; that's fine. I am not judgin'. I can sympathize although I'm not in your shoesI. I have many issues and struggles myself and I openly talk about it, but the objective is not to get the frum circles to bend to me, rather, it is I who need to bend towards them.

I generally don't talk about frum circles, for recovery is my focus and that cuts its way thru all religions and even the irreligious (although some here are lost about this), but in response to this post, I made an exception.

Godspeed to all

There a a lot of factors that play on our better judgement and cloud our ability for moral clarity. Our addictive tendencies by definition are without a doubt on top of the list. Add to that the fact that society advocates by every available source  that same gender relationships are simply normal and merely - just an “alternative lifestyle.” They are “gay” you understand, while others are “straight.” Two very legitimate ways to live life. In fact, the so called “Gay” lifestyle is even celebrated with parades of pride. Those that feel otherwise are condemned for much more than simply being wrong and narrow minded. Rather, they are labeled as psychologically sick. They are you see, “homophobic.”

How do we know what is correct? The Torah couldn’t be clearer. Male same gender intimacy is called by the Torah an abomination. Yes, we can judge this kind of activity as being absolutely wrong without any reservation at all.

At the same time, we hesitate to judge the people themselves who engage in this way. After all, are we truly privy to their personalities, temptations and life experiences? No were are not. We cannot really be in their shoes so we cannot properly judge them. Does that mean they are not judged? Of course, like all human beings, they are judged. Regardless of the general society's values, support groups, articulate outspoken advocates for alternative lifestyles and even rainbow parades. At some point  all human beings pay the piper to the one and only ultimate judge.

There are those that despite all the challenges they face with same gender attraction, boldly step up to the plate and work on living a wholesome,  proper and yes spiritual lifestyle. They are not the only ones that understand what they are personally going through. Hashem knows. How precious must their efforts be in his eyes? They are truly inspirational examples for all of us, even those without SSA challenges.

Shlomo24 you were there. You were a pillar of strength that I and I’m sure countless others looked upon as a beacon of strength.

Please come back and inspire us once again. We need you.