My dear 'waydown but not out' guy

To continue on what I mentioned to you yesterday on this thread;

Do you know that our child'hood' sufferings can shape our adult'hood'

Do want to check under the 'hood' of your truck, or are you not ready for that, and are only comfortable to do that to flirt...

Markz wrote on 21 Sep 2016 18:03:

In other words, maybe you should go to therapy? 

This is a translation by the way. I'm not claiming responsibility for the suggestion.

Our addiction likes to keep us "in control of the situation" in other words under the thumb of acting out, even while white knuckling

I have a hunch that there are a few guys that their addiction (i.e. subconscious) tells them
"Clock into Guardyoureyes.com/forum so you feel like you're doing recovery" and all it is, is a cover

Rabbeinu Yonah in beginning of Sharei Teshuva talks about a prison wall that collapsed and all convicts escaped besides one, the Prison warden finds him and gives him a beating. he uses the words 'kshei yom'. You found guardyoureyes - take it all the way - at least in proportion to what you have taken to לשם לאסטינן

Before Rosh Hashana is time to determine what we need to have a great life next year and skip half measures. There's many guys here that are addicts and the only full measure of sobriety is by removing the dirty mask of anonymity. To them I say please be honest with yourself and Gd and come to Rosh Hashana with a firm commitment of true sobriety. This forum alone for you is deciet

Hit my bottom. 

.

Serenity,

So is there no hope till one realizes he hit his bottom? I need the will power before that?

I can't say there is no hope until someone hits bottom and bottom is different for everyone anyway. I'm just saying what my experience was. What woke me up was when I hit my bottom. Maybe if someone sees the path others have taken to bottom, then they can get better without going there. I saw where gambling took others and I didn't want to go there, so I don't gamble.  Not that i didn't go far enough on my own. The Big Book talks about loew bottoms and how if you someone can see where they are headed they have a chance to recover if they want it. For people like me we can't still want to control and enjoy it and our own enlightened self interest must tell us that. I can't speak for people who are not like me. 

serenity wrote on 22 Sep 2016 16:38:

I'm not so into that.

Here's what the 12 and 12 says about hitting bottom.

Disclaimer. By quoting this I am not saying that I think this applies to everyone here. I am not saying this is the only way to look at it. I'm not saying anyone is or is not an addict. I'm not saying anyone specifically needs SA or any other fellowship. I'm not stating an opinion. I'm simply quoting the book for the one or two people who might find it interesting.



"In A.A.'s pioneering time, none but the most desperate
cases could swallow and digest this unpalatable truth. Even
these “last-gaspers” often had difficulty in realizing how
hopeless they actually were. But a few did, and when these
laid hold of A.A. principles with all the fervor with which
the drowning seize life preservers, they almost invariably
got well. That is why the first edition of the book “Alco-
holics Anonymous,” published when our membership was
small, dealt with low-bottom cases only. Many less desperate
alcoholics tried A.A., but did not succeed because they
could not make the admission of hopelessness.

It is a tremendous satisfaction to record that in the following
years this changed. Alcoholics who still had their
health, their families, their jobs, and even two cars in the
garage, began to recognize their alcoholism. As this trend
grew, they were joined by young people who were scarcely
more than potential alcoholics. They were spared that last
ten or fifteen years of literal hell the rest of us had gone
through. Since Step One requires an admission that our
lives have become unmanageable, how could people such
as these take this Step?

It was obviously necessary to raise the bottom the rest
of us had hit to the point where it would hit them. By going
back in our own drinking histories, we could show that
years before we realized it we were out of control, that our
drinking even then was no mere habit, that it was indeed
the beginning of a fatal progression. To the doubters we
could say, “Perhaps you're not an alcoholic after all. Why
don't you try some more controlled drinking, bearing in
mind meanwhile what we have told you about
alcoholism?” This attitude brought immediate and practical
results. It was then discovered that when one alcoholic had
planted in the mind of another the true nature of his malady,
that person could never be the same again. Following every
spree, he would say to himself, “Maybe those A.A.'s were
right . . .” After a few such experiences, often years before
the onset of extreme difficulties, he would return to us con
vinced. He had hit bottom as truly as any of us. John Barleycorn
himself had become our best advocate."

Watson wrote on 22 Sep 2016 20:24:

Why are you painting everyone with the same brush?
Who says everyone's an addict?
Does the fellowship give you the right to have an opinion?

Regarding the quote, it seems that they raised the bottom. They did this by convincing people that there's a good possibility that they will end up like them unless they took action. Now, it might be accurate, but it might not.

I don't understand how the book answered the question about hopelessness. Is it our job to convince someone else that he is hopeless or that his life is unmanageable? It seems to me that the program will only work if one comes to these conclusions by himself.

From the entire quote it does seem a bit like a ploy to increase membership.

I'm not a hundred percent sure why I'm going off script and analyzing a bit too much. Perhaps it is the effect of yet another fellow who called me this evening saying that he's in the program (partly due to my encouragement) and it is God's will, and it is also in God's plan that his wife should know, and yet, since joining the program, he finds that his observance of mitzvos has waned and the program people have no issues with that at all. 

cordnoy wrote on 23 Sep 2016 03:41:


Cordnoy,
I for one am happy and thrills to hear you speaking up, eloquently and with more words than you usually do.

I've met people in the program that have said things like "I can't believe you still won't call your sponsor on Shabbos".

I've talked to Dov about this and he and I agree. Many people come into 12 step with a fractured or false religious commitment. When they become honest with themselves they realize they aren't actually religious. Being that the 12 step program is one with a "God of your understanding," one could firmly believe that they're doing God's will even if they aren't religious. The God that they're referring to just isn't the God of "X" religion, whether it be Christianity, Judaism, or whatever. They might be jaded, but that's they're view on life. I think, and I'm not %100 sure that I spoke this over with Dov, that being the 12 step way of life is very spiritual and fulfilling, the desire for religion wanes. People need a strive to remain religious. People in 12 step may be similar to Baalei Teshuva in this regard, there has to be some kind of initial motivation to become religious. But if someone is living a good, spiritual, (which is not necessarily religious), life then they may not have any desire for religion anymore. Whether it's a problem or not, I'm not sure. I do believe that it's better for someone to live a good, positive, life than to live a terrible life and be (somewhat) religious. But I don't think it's so black and white and the issue is more complicated than that. I will say that religion shouldn't hold back someone from joining 12 step because A) Judaism and 12 step fit quite well together B ) There's no guarantee that someone will become irreligious. Where I come from, practically everyone is still frum. I do know other fellowships that a much higher percentage aren't frum, or many dropped a lot in frumkeit. I think that people are OK with it because, honestly, what right do they have to govern another's life? To each their own, and additionally, they can probably relate to the fellow addict. I would be surprised to find an addict who didn't have religious doubts in their life. 12 step isn't a place of judgment. Although the quote about calling on Shabbos surprised me. That's definitely out of line. It's one thing not to judge, but a comment like that is plain wrong. I've heard similar things though and I do not agree. I once heard, (paraphrasing), that "Spirituality and religion have a negative correlation." That's plainly not true. 

But this is just my thoughts.

Workingguy wrote on 23 Sep 2016 03:54:

I am very surprised. Some things have come up in this thread that don't happen in the groups I go to. 

You have a sponsor. Why are other people getting involved in how often you should call him?

cordnoy wrote on 23 Sep 2016 03:41:

These high-bottom drunks came to AA by themselves. The question then became how to help them.

cordnoy wrote on 23 Sep 2016 03:41:

These high-bottom drunks came to AA by themselves. The question then became how to help them.