gibbor120 wrote:


Perhaps, but with all due respect, as I have come to know r Waydown for some time now, I don't think your suggestion will have any long-standing effects, but as you say, it is up to him.

well either way my cleaning lady didn't show up so I will head to clean my toliets anyhow! That's for Gibbor. ( it was in the plans before I logged into GYE today)

I will also try to do a bit of Cords suggestion too.

nitzotzeloki wrote:




markz wrote:

gibbor120 wrote:


My wife isn't happy when I do dishes etc because it makes her feel like a loser, but the card or flowers idea is maybe nice, but not a replacement for regular day to day consideration and being a mentch and a nice person to her.

waydown wrote:


Hashivalisesonyishecho wrote:
I think Gibbor's point was helpful to enhance relationship. When you do that it actually lowers lust, by de-objectifying your wife in your eyes.

Cleaning the toilet doesn't do much for enhancing relationships the last time I checked

Waydown, currently your wife has a cleaning lady with a beard as a husband. Better than nothing ;-)

waydown wrote:

Once a person broke a boundary he did damage to his nefesh in the sense that he no longer has that boundary to restrain him so he needs to work on an earlier shoresh as prevention. We are all selfish as Cordnoy said that to be human is to be selfish or self centered. And clearly the act of indulging in taavos is a more selfish act than the act of providing for others. But it doesn't pose such an apparent problem for those who haven't broken boundaries, but for those who have, they need to work on that shoresh. That is why bemakom shebaalei teshuva .... that is because in the process of their teshuva they corrected sharashim which others haven't had to correct. The 12 step program is not simply a set of rules of dos and don'ts. It's a self betterment program. It addresses the shoresh of humility and the shoresh of selfishness. So it isn't important to ascertain to what extent you are being selfish when you masturbate, but the recovery process involves addressing the underlying human selfishness and working on bettering oneself in that and in other areas. A person who is working on his humility and selfishness issues is in a frame of mind more of giving rather than taking and his general focus is loftier and that will help the person to stop indulging in lowlife taavos.

Hashivalisesonyishecho,

Once again we are confusing a lack of selflessness with Selfish.

Selfish is when we disregard others.

A lack of selflessness means when we seek to fulfill our wants (Better known as bal tavous).

When we say "to be human is to be selfish ". I am not sure that that's 100% accurate. Human tendency is generally to get along and interact with others. We do not want to disregard others feelings certainly the ones we love. Its definitely certainly true that "to be human is for one to want to fulfill his/her desires" (But I am not sure that a human's natural instincts is to do that to the extent that it causes harm to others.) So if the 12 steps or any other recovery focused on the idea that one should get used to the concept of not wanting to fulfill his desires that seems to concide with lust. Getting used to the idea of not consuming things based on wants and enjoyment rather based on needs is definitely commendable.(So for example getting used to the idea not to fress cholent by a Kiddush when we all don't need it is a nice concept. And in fact I think someone on this forum did once suggest a connection between the overabundance of enjoyable food to lust (Tavos achila is prob connected to tavious zenus))
However, it seems to me like the 12 steps does not focus on the above rather the yesod of 12 steps is to let go of hurt and amend what we wronged others. Its all about hurting others. That's where I fail to see the connection between that and lust.
I see the root of lust as tavious. And I do admit that I am a huge bal tavio in all aspects in life. But when it affects others my natural instincts to please others override my tavious. ( I love food. But when my kids pull on me while I eat dinner I give them my food even though my wife screams at me not to! ( This is despite the fact that when my wife offered them the same food an hour ago they didn't want but when its on tatty's plate its yummier!)
To sum it up if 12 steps worked on all areas sheverias hatvious I understand. But when its about hurting others I don't get that.

Ok Gibbor & Cords,

So last night my wife had a tremendous headache and I had to watch the kids , put them to sleep and clean. It was about 3/4 hours of pretty much selflessness. Even GYE was off limits as its too time consuming. (A text is about the most I can do when watching my kids) But we did clean three bathrooms together. (Shh! please don't tell anyone that my kids find it fun to clean bathrooms! Young and naïve!)
I was to exhausted to fill out the step 4 sheet but its on my to do list. Yes every now & then I get a taste of how hard it is to work 4/5 hours a day + feed kids supper+ laundry +bath + put kids to sleep. Its a real drain. (Although I'll be honest when tatty puts the kids to sleep it takes two hours while mommy does it on ten minutes!) But I totally see why mommy is not often on the mood of intercourse and I surely get it.

Again, it appears that you haven't understood my post. I am clearly not getting into any specific discussion about how bad your or anyone alse's selfishness is. I am talking about bettering oneself in a general way and growing to a higher leven of functioning, such a level that may not be necessary if not for the fact that in recovery you need to go a step further since you have already broken boundaries(and continue to do so). If you want to benefit from what I am saying please reread my post when you have the time and if you wish to do so.

Hashivalisesonyishecho,

I read and reread your post. Here are the 1st four lines,

Once a person broke a boundary he did damage to his nefesh in the sense that he no longer has that boundary to restrain him so he needs to work on an earlier shoresh as prevention. We are all selfish as Cordnoy said that to be human is to be selfish or self centered. And clearly the act of indulging in taavos is a more selfish act than the act of providing for others.

The way I understand it. There may not be a direct cause & effect between selfish and lust. But once we broke boundries we have to dig into our shorosh haneshoma. We must dig into our greatest weakness and change ourselves that way. Thus, what is our weakness selfish. The act of indulging in tavious is "more selfish" etc.. But again the truth is our shroosh or weakness is in "self seeking" not "selfish" We are neither born with resentment to others nor do we seek or ever want to hurt others. Our inherit instincts are to please our selves. Its all about "I". But its not about harming others.

And re "And clearly the act of indulging in taavos is a more selfish act than the act of providing for others."
Well I guess if you put those two choices on a scale and don't allow me to choose anything else then yes its "more about being selfish". But the honest truth is it more about being self seeking than selfish.

Again my confusion is why are we choosing to focus on "hurting and resenting others"? Wouldn't it be more logical to focus on the "I". That is to focus on the fact that "I" don't need pleasures, etc.. Just because "I" have a desire that doesn't mean "I" must seek it etc.. Yes its a tall mountain to climb. But logically the "I" is the root of lust (I should say my lust. I suspect others are the same. But that's pure speculation.)

Cords,

Day 1 of step 4 is done. I assume I should just continue doing step 4 tomorrow as well?

Thanks again

Ouch. I just popped into the thread for a minute or two to see what was up and I hurt my head.

waydown wrote:


Yep
good stuff.
I answered your email.

Our call is in 12 minutes.

waydown wrote:


Maybe the confusion is about semantics and we may be misunderstanding each other because we don't both mean the same thing when we talk about selfishness. I mean as does Cords' quote that we are by nature self serving and always out to please ourselves and that that is the motivation behind our actions. That is to say that we are looking to satisfy the desires of the self rather than that of others. This does not mean to say that we are intending to harm others. I totally did not mean to say that we want to harm others nor do I believe it to be true. This however is the root of all evil because when completely focused on the self the person tends not to properly notice others nor to properly consider their needs or feelings nor do they see right from wrong. As chazal say they were led to worship the aigel in order to fulfill their illicit sexual desires. That's how far a person can be brought to err when he allows himself to indulge. So once a person has broken boundaries if he doesn't work to become less self serving he will continue to break those rules and others because one thing leads to the next and he will fall deeper and deeper. He needs to address the root of the evil, which is his self serving attitude and he needs to stop indulging.

Hashivalisesonyishecho wrote:


Good stuff!