I wouldn't be surprised if Cordnoy doesn't respond, and I don't think he'll mind if I chime in.
First, I give you credit for sticking to your guns. You know your opinion and you stick to it. If you are also prepared to be open-minded enough to hear the other side, let me know and I will PM you my phone number because we are going round in circles on the forum.
waydown wrote:

I know a number of people recently in shidduchim, from Chassiddish to MO to yeshivish, and I have seen some who get too hung up on externals but even those seem to have some level of sense in keeping their priorities straight.
I don't know who your circles are, and I don't need or want to know, but if I was making a comment on human nature based on my own observations, and ten people in similar circles disagreed, I would reconsider.

BTW, you are right that Cordnoy is much older than us, but I think his ehre einaklach are in shidduchim, so he knows what he's talking about


When your mother is brought into a conversation about lust, my synapses backfire, and I have no idea what to say. I must have missed that day in shrink school.


Please address this question directly - did you agree with Gevura's distinction between lust vs. desire, and do you see how it relates to your contention?

I have a lot of respect for what you have accomplished, I enjoy the debates, and the offer to continue by phone remains open.

waydown wrote:


Thanks for sticking up for me, Waydown!

There's a famous Gemara in Yuma which describes how Chaza"l attempted to destroy the Y"H for Arayos, but what happened was that the chickens didn't lay their eggs the next day. They realized that the same Y"H which is behind sex drive is also responsible for reproduction. Without it no one would be interested in sex and all living being would die out.
It seems to me from this Gemara that it's this Y"H which fills us with lust (i.e. Y"H for Arayos) that we're supposed to use to be with our wives. From this perspective it means that Hashem designed the world that we should lust for our wives.

I'm chuckling at the thought of hondling this sugya in Kollel...

BenTorah.BaalHabayis wrote:

Let me put this in a different context and let me know if you still agree.

If we did not have any desire to eat we would probably suffer from malnutrition and possibly some would die. Therefore it's OK if I salivate at the thought of a 5 course spread in the best steakhouse in the West, or make elaborate plans so when I go on vacation I don't miss my Thursday night kevius of 5 lb.s of cholent with kishka and yapchik on the side.

waydown wrote:


When you add, "I love my mother too," it shows the validity of your argument.

eslaasos wrote:


I understand your moshol, but then couldn't Chaza"l destroy the Y"H for "Salivating" without ruining the desire to eat?

BenTorah.BaalHabayis wrote:

I don't think Chazal can destroy anything, they asked Hashem and He granted their request. The whole Gemara is fascinating because without the YH, what's the point (ayin Derech Hashem). I need to review it before commenting.
It seems He didn't want the YH for lust to be removed, although He did allow it to be weakened. Why? I am scared to even speculate without seeing it inside.

My perception on used to be like yours when I was on the Wrong Road, and even when I made an About Turn, and even after starting the 90 day chart
Only later did my perception change to see that Most people in the world probably do NOT lust"
For more explanation please see what I wrote earlier today HERE

I wish you'd join us, for no extra charge.
Are you planning to stay on the wrong road with mistaken perceptions forever?

Waydown, Let me approach it this way for you. I don't want to try to get into your brain to determine which ideas are correct, healthy and normal and which aren't. I leave that to you. I will just say that you are here because you have an issue with acting out of sorts. That means that there is some ingredient in you which needs correction and for which you are seeking correction. This ingredient is or contains an unhealthy aspect of lust as is demonstrated by the fact that you are tempted to act out lustfully in the sense in which you admittedly do act out. This ingredient, being a part of you, and being present with you always, manifests itself somehow in connection to your wife. If you want to effectively eradicate, or at least render dormant, this character flaw, it will involve dealing with it's presence in connection to the way you view your wife as well. Because you can't have and experience the ingredient and not have and experience it at the same time. So the incorrect way in which you approach the subject of your wife will need to be addressed. It is incumbent upon you to search out the mistake and correct it.

Eslassos,

Thanks and I love your post.

Re, I know a number of people recently in shidduchim, from Chassiddish to MO to yeshivish, and I have seen some who get too hung up on externals but even those seem to have some level of sense in keeping their priorities straight."
Yes well said despite the fact that people want externals they seem to have their priorities staright. In fcat I have had numerous friends that first either dated or didn't want to date a girl because they were not pretty enough yet ended up marrying each other. But my point yes that you see people do often get hung up on externals. Why is that? do you honestly think they are just a brisker when it comes to the gemara that says one must like the way a lady looks? I think the obvious answer is because its normal for a man to desire some type of pleasure in a lady. Men are not just thinking about how can I fulfill my tachlis on this world? Which girl should I marry that I can show and gives her the most love? Rather many men are thinking which girl will I enjoy the most?
Re "When your mother is brought into a conversation about lust, my synapses backfire, and I have no idea what to say. I must have missed that day in shrink school."
The point of my mother is that yes I love my mother. But I think almost everyone wants their wife to look preiitier than their mother. if it all about love and not myself why? The answer is because there is some sexual desire needed.
"did you agree with Gevura's distinction between lust vs. desire"
I get very confused as it sounds like you can make at-least four or five distinctions,
1) Just love like my mother
2)Desire like a jelly doughnut which is just on the moment and that's it.
3) Lust where one gets a bit excited about it thinking some times about it and having some excitement
4)Obsessive lust where one doesn't stop thinking and desiring it all day.
I do think these lines get a little blury and many won't clearly fit into one specific category. When I say that I think its normal for guys to lust I mean category 3.
And once again in case I was not clear its commendable for anyone who chooses to work one reaching my category #1 of unconditional love. I respect that and will never mock it. All I ask is people realize that its a high level and not the norm.

Ok so all your saying with your moshol is don't obsess over lust. But a little is normal

"Hashivalisesonyishecho'

Yes very true I am here because I have problems with lust. but who says its has to do with how it manifests with my wife? Its has t with my bad habits which are maybe an addiction and maybe not. If its an addiction then I must stay far away from lust including me wife. However, if its not an addiction so then perhaps challenging my lust towards my wife well help as it has helped recently?

Don't obsess over what is considered normal

Don't obsess over if it's an addiction or not

One more important point for all, I have tired to avoid using the word "most" people lust (even though if you mix in non jews its certainly true I think) Rather I have tried to use the word "many" people lust. When I use the word most it gets very tricky especially amongst frum jews. "many" means numerous people that I know lust.