Look in white book page 64 & 65.....we stop first, then we can bring God in and begin to work on recovery.

cordnoy wrote:


I'm just barely starting the hakdama of the big book so I have to learn from a diuk that which says befairush once you start reading the real stuff.

cordnoy wrote:


But really I'm saying something additional. That stopping must consist of not even having the itch.

"But really I'm saying something additional. That stopping must consist of not even having the itch."

All I know is that my biggest struggle is that my body is hooked on getting the orgasm. It craves for that climax. For me this is the biggest struggle. If you tell me stop the "trimmings" Ok thats doable. Yes its more exciting to watch porn and/ or flirt on-line. But that fairly controlable. However, tell me don't climax, then the addictive cravings kick in. Thats why I compare it to a shikur. Tell him ok first thing is don't go to a bar or stop buying those expensive bottles. I don't know but I would assume some would say OK I can do that. But they still need the state of drunkness. So yes they can trim the excitement surrounding drinking but can they actually trim off the drinks or state of drunkeness?

Hashivalisesonyishecho wrote:


Good luck on stoppin' then.

cordnoy wrote:

waydown wrote:

Let me clarify more. Again the quote from The Big Book:

Though we work out our solution on the spiritual as well as
an altruistic plane, we favor hospitalization for the alcoholic
who is very jittery or befogged. More often than not, it is
imperative that a man’s brain be cleared before he is
approached, as he has then a better chance of
understanding and accepting what we have to offer.

What is the accomplishment of hospitalization? What can they do in the hospital that he can't do at home? But in the hospital there is no way in the world to get hold of alcohol. It is completely out of his reach and therefore in makes it possible to have it out of his mind. Like the mashal of the Besh"t of the simpleton who doesn't lust for the bas melech because he knows for sure that that's completely out of his reach.(I don't understand that particular Mashal so well but my point is to understand the point he is making that when something is really clearly out of reach by any stretch of the imagination it can also be out of mind) But when the person isn't in a place where the alcohol is completely out of reach his mind will keep going there and it isn't a situation which is conducive to recovery. So as cordnoy wrote: "Look in white book page 64 & 65.....we stop first, then we can bring God in and begin to work on recovery." And I think that stopping means having it out of mind totally. So that's the function of syagim etc. that is to bring it to a complete stop. But that won't be a long term solution. It's only a necessary preparation for the recovery work.

eslaasos wrote:


Markz, just a thought that was discussed on Shabbos. One aspect of Avrohom Avinu's biggest test was to be an achzor, the opposite of his middah of chesed. However he (perhaps primarily) invested his efforts in utilizing his inborn middah of chesed as his way of serving Hashem.
There is a Gemara that brings this out, but I don't want to make this a long post. If you think this will become a separate conversation, maybe open a new thread in the Beis Hamedrash section.

Waydown, sorry to interrupt your conversation, please carry on. I just wanted to respond to Markz on his post from R' Yisroel Salanter that happens to be a few pages back in your thread.

eslaasos wrote:


Avraham avinu utilized his natural middah to perform his avoda which was full of mesiras nefesh. For example he was one person bringing amunah into the world against everyone else. This was an uphill battle envolving mesiras nefesh mamash. He harnassed and utilized his best faculties in this avodah so he used his midas hachesed which was a natural strength. Had he tried to do it with midas hagvurah he would have been less effective because that was not his greatest strength. When it was necessary, of course, he worked with that middah too, like by the akaida. But for a person to just kind of sit back and let his nature lead him in the course of no resistance, that's what Reb Yisrael Salanter is referring to. And this has infinite levels, and to the extent that a person pushes himself beyond his natural comfort zone to do mitzvos, so is the chashivus of his avoda. We should all do mitzvos utilizing our strengths but demanding of ourselves to go the extra mile.

Hashivalisesonyishecho wrote:


That makes a lot of sense, thank you for the elucidation.
I still don't like the original comment that the learning and davening of a luster may not be worth anything. First, I don't think it's possible to stay consistent with shemiras hasedarim and tefillah btzibur without mesiras nefesh.
My second issue that there is inherent value in learning and davening even if it does become more habitual and requires less sacrifice seems to be the subject of the quote. The quote initially seems to go beyond your understanding - "The obligation is to strive in Avodas Hashem, not to only keep what his nature allows, and what is a little difficult...this can be termed a Porek Ol". However the next sentence seems to be more in line with your understanding - "if he does not put any effort into his Avodas Hashem".
I'm not familiar with the style of this author to be able to be medayek the nuances, so unless someone has more to add I'm fine with your interpretation.

Agav, I believe Rav Dessler has a concept that true lishmah is when the mitzvos become so naturally a part of you that you can't envision yourself not doing them. The same way you wake up, get out of bed and get dressed, part of the morning process is washing your hands and saying Modeh Ani. This requires no mesiras nefesh.

eslaasos wrote:

I agree with you. I was not the one who made that original comment.
eslaasos wrote:

Obviously we must strive to become a person with good values and middos and keeping The Torah is the formula to make that happen. When that happens it has tremendous inherent value, but his 'avoda' then moves on to continue to improve where he has not yet reached. If a person at any point says 'well at this point I'm good enough as I am so no more striving and hard work is necessary' then he has ceased to do 'avoda' and he is neglecting his further responsibilities to do what he has not yet done, because the avoda is never finished no matter how good his midos have reached so far. If he does stop to continue this 'avoda' at that point he is a porek ol.
eslaasos wrote:


I'm not familiar with the writings of Rav Dessler, but maybe it can be understood in light of what I am saying that a person needs to strive to reach a level where his tendencies and inclinations are to do good. For example if a person has a desire to murder, he has terrible middos but the fact that he abstains is avoda and will merit reward. But his goal should be to become a person who doesn't have this desire even though if he succeeds, then from that point onward he will not get schar for abstaining since is only normal not to murder. His avoda will then be in correcting other things. So as a person improves he continues to work on correcting evils of less magnitude than previously. The avoda which a person does with the intent and desire to benefit from the effect of his kiyum hamitzvos to become a better person, perhaps that intention might be considered lishma, meaning leshaim the goodness that the mitzvos have.

Re avraham avinu look guys this is a back & forth amougst gedolim and probably all true. I hearda shmuz from R shloma Wolbe ZT"L a couple of years ago where he said every perosn has one meddia that they are good in. (maybe its chessed or gevura or hasmada etc..) If one takes the mida that he is already good in and excels in it then that midda will hlep him be an adam shalom in everything else in life. Its kind fo an opposite approach to what some of you are saying re Avraham avinu. According to R wolbe one just has to perfect what he is good in already.

Hashivalisesonyishecho,

"So as cordnoy wrote: "Look in white book page 64 & 65.....we stop first, then we can bring God in and begin to work on recovery." And I think that stopping means having it out of mind totally."

Well really first Cords. Yes so true. If only it was easy to "stop first". This is especially exasburated by the feeling that today my life is perfectly managable.

Now re stopping means totally out of our minds. Really? Is that a prerequiste for joining any recovery program? And so before I am even sober I am expected not to even think about lust when passing an attractive female? Again this is before I am in recovery. And thats not the same as what I think cords is suggesting. I think Cords is saying you gotto white knuckle it till recovery.

waydown wrote:


the sa requirement for membership is "a DESIRE(!!!!!!!!!!!!!!) to stop lusting. that is it.