Markz I am a luster yet tht exact occurane happened more than once. It was mikva nite and wife just fell asleep while I was out for mariv and I refused to awake her or cojoal her. And we do plan ahead so that she should be comforatable. Wahts more is that even while I actually ahve intimacy I will position myself in a way that makes my wife most comfortable. That is despite the fact that I am not comfortable. Because yes I must give. But bottom line it still relives my itch. I am still taking.

I totally disagree with those that say lust has no place in a jewish home. Unless lust meaning an obbsseive sexual desire has no place. That is true. But a sexual desire is normal and expected. And hashem knows that. He wants us to use that desire for our wives.

I must admit I did not read every comment throughly.

I hope not to be browsing GYE any more today. (It's addictive LOL! And my wife doesn't know about it so I must hide it from her. Sound famaliar??

I want to wish you all a gmar chasima tova.

Firstly, I gotto ask you guys mechila since I get rough on the edges and may have offedned some GYE commentors.

I mean this seriousy and sorry if it comes out mushy. Every guy here is a holy kodosh yid. This is the nisyan of our dor. The typical darsha on teshuva says don't take on anything to hard just pick an easy kabala. However, the GYE community is above and beyond. We realize that life requires us to make hard choices some times. Ashrecha may we all be zocha to a holy kodosh vtahardik year with gezunt parnasa and lots of nachas!

Gevura shebiysod said "we can be on the receiving end not the taking"

In other words

Look at Rashi
Sex is an enjoyable act, and R Chisda was encouraging it at the appropriate time. It's designed to help advance their relationship.
But that is different to SA.
Someone that is addicted to sex to try satisfy it 24hr, and brings that lust to the bedroom, that is a problem.
True love is when we're not looking to ease an 'itch', but rather to spend time as our sages call it 'ona' with our wife and it happens to be that sex can be a very enjoyable form of fun for both parties

waydown wrote:


We are all BH Yiden with a helige neshama, and we have all made some good choices along the way alongside our bad choices. Letting your wife sleep is definitely a good choice, but doesn't prove your point.

How do you define the distinction between lust and sexual desire - or Gevura's term of physical attraction? To be continued after Yomtov...

waydown wrote:


My dear friend, we are all here to help each other grow. We started off being careful not to offend, and as we got going, we became more blunt because we were seraching for emes - call is rischa d'oraisa.
Wishing you a gmar chasima tova and may all your tefillos be answered b'ratzon.

Well this is the only gye I read in quite a while...yes, I have what to comment.
Sorry...not now.
I love you guys.
Thank you for all the chizuk.

Gmar chasimah tovah.

Obviously we are discussing an ideal, maybe one that only a Malach could aspire to. But whatever progress we can make in this area will surely improve our marriage, and make us feel like more of a mentch too.

I could write more but it's getting late... Wishing you all a Gmar Chasima Tova and an easy fast!

It seems like there is a discussion going on and people are using different languages. Here in GYEland which is populated by lust addicts, lust is a selfish desire to take something for my needs without concern for the person I am taking from. More than that, the person doesn't even need ro be there or could be replaced by another person or object. Further, lust usually comes as a coping mechanism when real life becomes too difficult to deal with.
This is not to be confused with healthy attraction and desire for one's wife. That is kadosh, as long as it does not turn into lustful taking.

When actually having relations with your wife, it is important to give and to recieve but not to take. Taking means taking something that is not freely given. Recieving is receiving something that is freely and willingly given.
As I have said before, your wife knows the difference, even if you may not.

Posting after Yom Kippur in E'Y. May these tips help all of Klal Yisrael with this tremendous nissayon of our times!

Waking up with kids is so tough because when you're tired, your defenses are way down. It's normal.

Tips for avoiding that have worked for me if I give myself a few seconds to think about what my Yetzer (Animal Instinct) wants me to do. (I say animal instinct because when we give to much credence to the Yetzer it becomes a more formidable adversary. The non-Frum world just says we have a natural animal instinct and it's normal. This actually helps me because I tell myself, "I AM NOT AN ANIMAL, I am a human who has self control. I can beat this.)

Again, think about what your Yetzer wants you to do...Giving yourself this time is the first step to break free to fight. Your Yetzer DOESNT want you to think at all when he has you in the heat of the battle in the middle of the night. Just like in Egypt, Pharoah inundated the Jews with work so they wouldn't have time to plan a rebellion.

1. Say to yourself at least 10 times very slowly out loud: "One Second of Pleasure for all the suffering in the world". Think deeply how much this issue has affected your life and how you get so little benefit from MZ. It's a cost benefit analysis. It's a BAD deal that the Yetzer wants you to take. What a jerk! You're a smart guy...just one second of pleasure for all the suffering that comes with it? NO THANK YOU!

2. "Rigzu V'Al Techetau..." The Gemara tells us to get ANGRY at the Yetzer Hara. I recommend cursing him and berating him out loud and then telling him to get out of your house. Call out to Hashem to get rid of this Menuval. The morning is so close. Just get to the morning.

3. Remember the HUGE REWARD that comes from avoiding any sin in general and this one in particular. TAKE ADVANTAGE. Hashem will bless you with anything you want and WANTS to do exactly that. SHAMAYIM IS SHAKING when you avoid this sin, even if you have to strap yourself down to a chair!

4. Tell yourself: I have literally seen these images before - they are all the same. Just flesh. Nothing new to see here. Boring! You know from experience, that this stuff becomes nauseating after a while. You've been down this road before. Searching and searching for something new...in the end of the day, it's all the same. Your Yetzer will leave you alone once you start feeling this way.

Firstly, A gut kvitel to all.

Battle ready thanks great wonderful tips. I will make sure to read and chazor your comment as I think its very well written and to the point.

Re lust verse sexual deisre. I really have no clue hwon to differintiate. Just a luck guess.

Lust is the obsession of the sexual desire. In other words if you rip out the obssesion part it becomes a normal sexual desire. This all circles down to my main point Of course the ulitimate goal of intimacy should be just love. But Hashem knows must of us ain't there yet. And so we are suppose to desire (desire not lust) our wife`. And thats why its a mitzva for her to have exterior attractions for her husband (like putting on make up). When I get a lust attack its an obsession of my sexual desire. But if I tell my sexual desire that you will have true love that will also relive that itch, the obsession goes away. The obsession goes away but it still itch down there. When that intimacy happens I am "taking" in the form of relieving my itch but its no longer an obsession.

In a nut shell I do agree with you guys that lust has no place but fullfiling a sexual desire does.

This make up example is truly missing the point. A wife wears make up to look good for the husband (unless of course she wears to work where he's not there but that's an entirely different story). You seem to be saying (over and over) that if she looks good to the husband, he will now have an itch and that is good lust. There are several things wrong with that.
Her looking good is just another way for the husband to be attracted to her and feel good around her....It has zero relevance to the bedroom.
Sorry....falling asleep....Will write more.

Thats my point Cordnoy. Why must a wife have an external look good for her husband. Love is not an external thing. All make up is, is an external thing. Thats why its such a good example.

"Her looking good is just another way for the husband to be attracted to her and feel good around her."

In english that means her husband should itch for her. Why does a husband "feel good" about make up?

If she is smelly or messy then yes you have a point. Its ot good to be around someone repulsive. Thats not a sexual issue. But make up??

Although I have been staying out of this discussion, I have been following, and I will just state one opinion before retreating to the shadows once more.

I very very strongly disagree with the notion that women dress up or wear makeup so that men should lust after them. Maybe there's a psychologist who can back me up, but my personal understanding is that women need to look good for themselves. It makes them happy to look good. Even attractive. Not just neat and put together. See how your wife get dressed to go to a shiur for women. Ain't nobody lusting after her there. Or a separate seating simcha. She's not getting all dressed up and made up for the 5 minutes with you in the car, when you're going to have your eyes on the road most of the time anyway.
Men don't understand this concept, because we are so focused on sex, so we assume that all women are dressing provocatively so that WE can enjoy the view. We're just a bunch of self centered pervs.
In truth, looking good is vital to a woman's self esteem.

I think the point being made by MBJ, Cordnoy and others is that there is a difference:

Lust = taking
Love = giving and receiving = sharing

Externally, the actions involved are similar, so it's easy to go off track, and very difficult for a lust addict to differentiate.

To go back to the starting point of this discussion about redirecting lust to your wife, with this premise it's easier to see the issue. Lust, as manifested by "itching" for porn etc. is all about taking (there's no-one there to share with!) so to redirect that to your wife is to say I will save it for later when I will take this pleasure from my wife, whereas a marital relationship is supposed to be about sharing - the opposite of taking.
Yes, this is a high level (above my head right now, so please don't take this as preaching), but it's something we can connect to a little bit - by giving instead of taking as often as we can - as in your example of letting your wife sleep when she is exhausted on mikva night.
It is not the angelic level of Avrohom Avinu or the Tannaim and Amoraim who lived in a different metzius.