Part was in humor. My point was
For myself I'm addicted to GYE so if the baby wakes me I'll be back checking on the forum
If you're not a GA (gye addict), when you wake in the night immediately post on your forum or email one of the guys. Don't call them in the middle of the night cos they may have an itch (to shoot)

Let's continue the other conversation when we have the time - if you still don't mind my style. Your main point is more important for now - what to do tonight.

Partially because I could so with some more zechusim this time of year and partially because I was verbally abusing you, I offer you to PM me, and I will give you my Google voice number so that you can call me anytime tonight that you have an itch. I will shmooze with you on any subject that you want, or learn any sefer you want, assuming I am familiar enough to do so. For now, this is only for tonight.

If that doesn't appeal, or if I miss your phone call, try to setup a different distraction in advance.

To your other point:

waydown wrote:


The sincerity factor I was referring to has nothing to do with belief in a program, it's the level of sincerity in saying to Hashem, or yourself for that matter, "I truly don't want this".



Conceptually, you are absolutely correct, it's a Gemara that tells us Habo Litaher mesaiyin oso.
But I think we need to fight smart as well as hard. Fighting hard with willpower alone hasn't proven to be sufficient for most of us here, and to rely on it involves a level of denial. Were you on today's call? There was a great share at the end where someone Big shared how he recently came to this realization.
We have to find the right hishtadlus, and the most productive use of our strength.



There ain't no "you guys" here.
In one of my previous posts (I think in my thread), I defined my understanding of the surrender step.
It was many posts ago but along the lines of I need Hashem's help but am still obligated to my hishtadlus. I'll try to find it



See above

You confuse me man. So do we fight or do we surrender? I always thought both. You ifght as hard as you can then the rest you leave for hashem via surrendering. But some of the pors on here seem to say don't fight at all.
I heard the tale end of a shuir from R Akiva Tatz on free will last nite. The famous gemara states that if there are two roads on you walk on the road thats less tznuis even if you don't look you are a rasha. Why Because our job is to avoid fights. Its not our job to get involved in tests then try to win. Al tivanio lidi nisyaon. Perhaps thats the fight we should have. We should fight not to get into fights. Avoid patterns that trigger. I guess we would call that the first drink. As an example, I often work on my computer at a local coffee shop where lots of young good looking goyim hangout. The more milinneal kind of yidden frequnet that shop as well. Between the two the eye sees alot of triggers. Perhaps its time to change my work pattern? Stay at home despite my noisy kids? Or no I am on the worng path. This is not either surrender.

unfortuntly between yom tov and work I doubt I'll make the call till Tuesday Oct 13. I have alot of pressure over the next three weeks. In fact part of my push to tackle lust is so that I can better concentrate on work. I need to succeed with no distractions. I know that sounds shallow. I plan on joining the calls full swing on OCT 13 whether I succeed or not. But guys I culd use a few extra tefilos. Thanks.

Oh and thanks for the offer. As much as I come across all tough, i appreciate the loving GYE family. The gutzkit is unreal. Every guy here will have tremendous zechusim this yom kippur. IYH I will PM you after yom kippur for your google voice offer. I think I am good for tonite.

waydown wrote:


We are powerless in the current context, and we need to do what needs to be done (i.e. fight the YH with smart hishtadlus) to change the context, and we always need Hashem's help. We are always accountable for our actions.
If I'm oversimplifying, someone will probably let me know, but my eyes are closing on me.
Changing your place of work to avoid triggers sounds like a prime example of recognizing you are not being successful in the current situation, so you are taking the easiest path of resistance and finding a safer place to work.
As you pointed out, that's what the Gemara is telling us we should be doing.

The concept of surrender, as in surrender my lust, is letting go of the taavah, or the resentment, or the ego. These are feelings and emotions that we tend to hold on to, so it's not naturally easy to sincerely let go.

waydown wrote:


I hear you on the work pressure, I think a lot of the guys here work, so a lot of us have a lot of missing days where the work piles up.
Kol hamispalel b'ad cahveiro, let's all daven for all of Klal Yisroel b'chlal, ub'prat waydown ben ?

Waydown?
It's Yerida Ben Aliyah
And he's more like his father!

ben wayup????

waydown wrote:


As far as mixing lust with love, perhaps it is not real lust but it is also not real love.

I do believe from my own experience, that the only way to really understand the difference is by experience. The more I worked to identify when I was lusting, the more I learned to tell the difference.
The ideal is that when lust is motivating our actions, we deal with the lust and cause ourselves to stop lusting. when love is motivating our actions, let it roll.
While it can be okay to "mix lust and love" (if it is really possible) it is important to be clear that it is a bedieved situation. Less bedieved than acting out but still bedieved. Until that is clear there will be no push to strive for the ideal.

The stress put on looking good for your husband may be because most people are not able to live the ideal. It may also be because not looking good can be an inhibitant to love. It is hard to love somebody that turns you off. So your tayna is not such a good raaya.

Your wife may appreciate being told that she looks like a model and might be excited that you itch for her. But you have not really provided her with anything else. If someone grows up is whole life drinking watered down liquor he will enjoy it. He is just unaware that there is a concept of good liquor and does't realize that the real unwatered down stuff is in a whole league altogether.
The more you manage to deal with your lust without your wife (and without acting out) and train yourself to have your relationship with her based on only love without lust, both you and your wife will realize what you were missing all these years, and there will be no turning back.
My marriage was very healthy and positive, but as I learned to stop lusting (and that I can stop and don't have to lust) my marriage and relationship with my wife blossomed into a tremendously different level. I wish this on you as well.

Re, "It is hard to love somebody that turns you off."

Not true I love my mother even though I think she is not pretty. Yes perhpas if one is smelly and filthy then its hard to love. But why do you need make up for example? The answer is because a wife is a differnet love than a mother. A relationship to one's wife has lust mixed in.

I totally disagree with the notion that you can't fully love while you lust. Why not? Why can't I give while I also crave for it. In fact I'll be honest while my itch is sometimes very strong I am always very sensitive to my wife's needs. (I won't go into details. But I'll just say I sooner make myself uncomfortable to ensure that she is comfortable) I always put her first even during intimacy. I know thats the main thing. But I still fulfill my lust. You have not explained why logically you can't have both. I clearly provide her with tons of love. And every woman loves being told she is a model. Sorry my friend. In fact I even say it in the same tone like my wife's hungairian boby zt"l use to say. (she always said you look azuvi ah model very chinush ( That last word is a famous Hungarian word for pretty). And I believe very strongly that its important to apprecaite and compliment ones wife's exterior looks. If not you need shalom bayis counseling because every lady wnats to think they are pretty.
While I do agree that by big tzadkim exterior looks and lust should not play a role, I don't think its bedievd at all. I think its expected to play a role with most humans aside for a few very select keduahsdik yidden. But then again you guys on GYE are the select kedushadik yiden. Henceforth only love not lust.

I think you are confusing "physical attraction" with "lust". It's true that he relationship with your wife includes physical contact and therefore attraction is necessary (as opposed to the relationship with your mother, for example). But when we use that attraction for our own pleasure instead of for enhancing the connection, then it turns into lust.

You are splting hairs. I don't get it if that attraction has nothing to with our own pleasue and its all enhancing the connection why do you need exterior attractions. You argue because there is physical contact. Why does that change anything. Yes if a person is sloopy or dirty then its naustiating. But say one's wife is neat why the make up?

Waiting with bated breath for Gevura's explanation.

Of course we are supposed to have pleasure but the pleasure is supposed to come from giving to the other. When we concentrate on taking for ourself then it's lust.

I can tell you from experience that the (few) times when i succeeded in doing it right it was much more fulfilling and pleasurable. But if we go in hoping for that then it ruins the whole thing because then we are thinking about ourselves again.