Markz, I'm afraid your posts come off as patronizing.

mzl wrote on 11 Oct 2018 00:49:

I don't know what that word means so I guess thank you

Markz wrote on 11 Oct 2018 01:31:

You must be such a talmid chacham that you speak English like a foreign language!

mzl wrote on 11 Oct 2018 00:49:

Naa He's just a good guy who cares and  wants to help people - Including You.

mzl wrote on 10 Oct 2018 15:58:

Convoluted and almost impossible for me to make any sense of. Kinda like your recipe for prople not losing babies. "B'hani kovshi d'Rachmona lomo lon" were the words the prophet Yeshaya spoke to the manager who could have been moshiach, Chizkiyahu hamelech. The melech made a convoluted but very logical-sounding excuse for not allowing his children to get married. The navi educated him to stay simple, honest, and true. Tomim tihyeh im Hashem Elokecho is the way...even tho it led to Menashe the rosho. Hashem knows exactly what he's doing and Chizkiyahu was wrong. Ho'Elokim boro es ho'odom yoshor, v'heim bikehu cheshbonos rabim.  Convoluted thinking second-guesses G-d, it puts us back in the driver's seat (at least in our own ape-like minds), and it screws things up for generations. Oh...and it's also completely unnecessary.

You can do better, chaver.

mzl wrote on 10 Oct 2018 16:03:

You did start to leave the forum already, when you changed the definition of 'clean'. The Wall Of Honor has it's own definition of it and it wasn't 'good enough' for you. So you changed your definition to answer to a higher authority (your perfectionism) - and the next thing you know, you're back to masturbating!

If the only way you lost your count would have been according to your own definition then I wouldn't be saying any of this. But after you embellished upon OK to make it GREAT - you couldn't even keep hold of the OK. In my opinion, this itself teaches us a lot. And if we learn the right things from it, life can improve in all kinds of ways.

You have had better days. Maybe you are irritated.

mzl wrote on 11 Oct 2018 03:49:

Dov's tricycle (see his sig) may need some WD40, who knows? But I assure you he's not irritated...

Perhaps you are?
Dov wrote:

Are you seeing negativity in my post? I don't. There's nothing personally critical about trying to demonstrate to you that, in a way, you already left the forum once when you managed your definition of clean. You may agree or disagree, but it's still a pretty simple idea and there's no tarring-and-feathering going on here.

Or we're you writing you someone else...if so, there I go again making things about me that aren't, woops! Won't be the last time

I suppose in a metaphorical sense you have a point. But in another very important sense (reality) I haven't left because I'm here writing a post.

Maybe you don't like this definition because you beg your wife for s*x when you think about her or look at her and she's not in the mood?

Nothing wrong with that, as long as she views it as a necessary and healthy thing.

That's not my case though.

I think it's difficult for you to imagine an addict who doesn't have ego issues. I can understand that.

I don't think you were putting me down in your post, but you can be irritated and not lash out.

I feel bad because from your point of view there must be a lot of addict-y things about me but a lot of things that aren't, it doesn't jive with what you know so well.

I'd love to get together for coffee just to shoot the breeze, as long as you don't expect too much. I don't have much to offer.

My dear MZL, 

I think it would do you good to take a moment to consider the comments that Dov made, without getting defensive.

There were some finer points there which you may not be ready to hear yet. But perhaps you can be open to them, and not be so quick to dismiss them.

I have been in recovery a while now, and I still hear new insights and perspectives.

Because I know Dov, I can say that he was coming from a place of being helpful and without any agenda at all. I didn't find your response to him fair or helpful.

I do question what you gain by posting here, if not to invite constructive feedback...

I have certainly gained from what Dov has so well written. So thank you.

moish u.k. wrote on 11 Oct 2018 14:07:

Read this carefully please. Dov's last couple of posts did not hit the mark.

Should I really elaborate or can we leave it alone?

Dov wrote on 11 Oct 2018 03:34:

I am going to respond in detail to this even though the comment is off the mark.

Let's assume for the sake of argument that I have metaphorically left the forum by managing my definition (like a moving the goal post.) Why are you bringing this up? Once again, I'm still here. So what's your point?

You pretend to read my mind and second-guess the reason why I changed the definition. You are not even guessing, because I already said what the reason was. It was out of concern that I might end up victimizing my wife in order to stay clean. I might add that one eminent forum user agreed with me that this is indeed an area of concern. Why are you second-guessing me?

You said I did it out of perfectionism. What data do you  have to show that I am a perfectionist? Are you confusing achievement with perfection?

You said that I couldn't keep hold of the OK. You are wrong about that. But I wanted to have s*x with my wife because she dressed up on yom tov. She did not agree. What is my crime?

My impression is that you think that sex addiction and sexual relationships are closely connected, so there is an ideal marriage to aspire to, and you can see that I'm not on that path. You may think that some day my marriage is going to ride off into sunset, but I know my wife and I don't buy it. My approach is totally different.

Dov wrote on 11 Oct 2018 03:25:

This is not a good post either.

I think you are saying that it's convoluted but sometimes life is convoluted. And maybe it doesn't make sense to you because you don't have enough imagination.

You bring as proof a story which is about preventing future events. But my story is about understanding the past. Do you see the difference?

You ridicule my desire to avoid a miscarriage. You assume that my data is no good. Can you really be sure of that? I know what I saw. I don't understand it very well, but the stakes are high so I'm forced to be conservative. Can you blame me?

I have to say I'm very sad to see that you are not thinking so clearly (and maybe I give you too much credit.) I think it's better if you focus on people that aspire to internalize your culture. I like your writing and your humor sometimes but my goal in life is not to have the z'chus to become you, even if you haven't masturbated for decades. My culture is not the same as yours.