cordnoy wrote on 13 Jun 2023 15:24:

Since we are talking about non-addicts, per your subsequent post, what will be of the gentleman who does not become a kaasan, is pleasant to be around and is generally in control of his emotions. There just comes a time (or several) in the day or night when he has an uncontrollable urge to unzip and let loose? And if he has access to porn, then he will take advantage, but will not commit crimes, fly into a rage or embarrass his family to get his fix? And if his wife has been off limits for several days too long, he will gaze lustfully at her and calmly spill his seed? And perhaps he will conjure images in his mind of women he fantasizes of being with?
If his life is "manageable" (since he is a non-addict), can he be treated as "normal," or will he still not get the help he needs?
Although we agree there is some disagreement regarding the exact statistics, can we agree that there is, at the very least,  a "miyut hamatzui" of people like this? If not, then they (me) are in fact, not normal, and should not be treated as such. If yes, what is the benefit of perpetuating a stigma among a large subsection of our population? How, in fact, should he (me) get the help he needs? Or is he untreatable until his life becomes unmanageable, at which point he becomes an addict, which is abnormal, thus reaffirming the now-justified stigma?

On the topic of statistics, i'm going to post this again. Of course, this is just one statistic, and as always with statistics you have to know what exactly you're looking for to reach an accurate conclusion, but I thought it was relevant nonetheless:

The following is an email I received from GYE on September 18 2020:

Change is hard.
Countless Jews are looking for an exit strategy from inappropriate online content -- but realize that they are trapped. 
The allure and vividness of adult content and the instant access can overwhelm the brain’s decision-making process, and often, even very ehrliche people get hooked. To compound the challenge, they have no one to talk to about it, they are too ashamed. 
In the past few years the scale of the problem has become massive, and Covid-19-related stress and free time has exacerbated the problem like never before. 
A recent study by Dr. Rosemarin & Pirutinsky has surveyed a sample group of people from various Orthodox communities. The results were shocking. 58% of single males and 51% of married males admitted that they view inappropriate online content at least once a month. And that’s before Covid-19...
It would be no exaggeration to say that the nisyonos regarding kedushah during 2020 have reached a level unprecedented in the history of Klal Yisrael! 
The remedy the Ribono Shel Olam has given our generation is GuardYourEyes (GYE), an incredible organization which I’ve had the privilege to be involved in for over a decade. 
GYE gives people hope, support, and guidance, and has helped tens of thousands break free. But this is just the tip of the iceberg. There are hundreds of thousands still trapped.
With your help I am confident GYE can reach and help 20,000 new members THIS YEAR!
Please contribute today.
May you be inscribed in the book of life - כתיבה וחתימה טובה!
Rabbi Abraham J. Twerski

This message was sent to you as a supporter of GuardYourEyes on behalf of Rabbi Twerski.

Bigmoish wrote on 16 Aug 2023 05:51:

This really resonated with me. Statistics aside, decisions of who actually is an addict aside, etc., there are many people here who could attain at least major improvement even if they don't hit rock bottom, engage in self-exploration until they figure out what's really wrong with them, or attend a 12-step group. Of course, there are many here that do need those things, and on an anonymous forum it's hard to tell who needs what. (Perhaps in real life it's hard to tell too.)

I don't see why it's a problem to tell a new fellow here to try something "more mild" to see if it helps. Maybe it will help a little, maybe a lot, or maybe not at all. I understand that others disagree and feel that this is always bad advice, but i'm struggling to figure out why, and what exactly they feel should be suggested to someone a few layers away from rock bottom. And especially to people far away from how deep this can go (such as bochurim struggling with masturbation and porn, or bad images that aren't even porn). I am looking to hear people's perspective (though please try to do it in a respectful way and stay away from anonymous internet poison).

Thank you Big Moish for bringing up this important point, and sorry for hijacking your thread, though it seems you are interested by this topic as well. Plus, Cords said there's no such thing as hijacking a thread! :-)

I'm assumin' my reaction was the same the last time, but these statistics and assumptions are ....... (word deleted by moderator on account of being disrespectful).

Care to elaborate? 

(Extra points if you mention pajamas.)

cordnoy wrote on 16 Aug 2023 13:27:

“cordnoy” wrote:


Is this what you are referring to 

Markz wrote on 16 Aug 2023 13:41:

Lol! It must be rough to have to moderate your own posts!

Captain wrote on 16 Aug 2023 13:45:

It is abundantly clear that it was not I who moderated that post.

cordnoy wrote on 16 Aug 2023 13:57:

But it was much funnier to think that it was!

Bigmoish wrote on 16 Aug 2023 05:35:


Nah, anyone can do that...

Bigmoish wrote on 16 Aug 2023 05:51:

Sorry, I don’t quite get it. How ‘manageable’ is a life with ‘an uncontrollable urge to unzip and let loose, will take advantage of any access to porn, and if his wife has been off limits for several days too long, he will gaze lustfully at her and calmly spill his seed. And perhaps he will conjure images in his mind of women he fantasizes of being with.’ If that’s been going on for years, tried countless times to stop unsuccessfully, together with consistent low self-esteem, shame and despondency due to a double life that seems impossible to break out of, what sort of life is that?

I’m a bit puzzled that you’ve included yourself in this category. From what I could make out from earlier posts, you seem to have worked the 12 steps and must have admitted that your life is unmanageable. Am I mistaken or am I missing something?  

when i read your words i feel like crying cause i find it hard to cry for myself  but i can cry for you.
 i don't see how  i can quit cold  surfing even  if it triggers me , please let us know how  that is going for you  thx