B"H I am able to resume posting and a lot of water has gone under the bridge, so to get back to the real point here, I am going to do what I can to make my 12 step journey real simple. (That's right you don't need to read from the beginning of this thread, you can start right here)

This thread is about a guy (me) who had some prior knowledge of AA (Alcoholics Anonymous) and the 12 steps and was very allergic to them on many levels. I am almost certainly not alone in that, especially among charedi yidden, although I probably had a more extreme aversion than most. If you don't believe it and/or you are very bored and really have nothing better to do you could always check it all out on my anti-12 step thread on the Breaking Free forum.

But, to save you the trouble and keep it really simple, let's just say that I had lots and lots against AA and the steps and I used a lot of very strong language attacking them from every angle. Not just for the purpose of attacking them, but more to find my own path, as a frum Yid, and as an individual, in the fight against addiction.

So in the beginning my discussion was all about how and why the 12 steps were bad/silly/futile/self-defeating and whatever else you can think of. I was not even at the point of discussing whether they could work for me. It was very obvious to me that they were out of the question for me and the only question was how to develop a different path, which for me as a frum Yid, would obviously have to be a Torah path that would have all the maalos of a Torah approach and at the same time would make sure to avoid all the "foolishness/stupidity etc" of the steps.

But then a curious thing happened. I was going to a therapist to treat my ADHD (discovered only 6 months ago) and I told him about my addcition to forbidden images (not avodo zoro -- although more about that soon).

His reaction? You should do the 12 steps. They are a great fit for you.

I tried in vain to explain to him how he had totally got the wrong guy. That the 12 steps would not and could not work for me for so many reasons. That I had posted on this forum how they were nonsense (at that point I was getting quite desparate). He didn't buy it at all. He said he had someone like me once and he told him to try a group just once. He said that it had to be a good group, though. If I was unhappy with the makeup of the group I should make sure to try a good group just once. (For the record, the 12 steps people urge you to try at least 6 times but my therapist was and is a smart cookie and he knew that once would be enough and he knew that once would be very hard for me to refuse).

Now there are many good people on this forum. One of the best is, without a doubt, our Baal Achsanya and Big Boss Administrator Guard. He put up with me in the beginning, well, up to a point. And he was as convinced as I was that I would never, ever, even consider doing the 12 steps.

So what changed? Why have I now gone to the other extreme so that today I am putting 6 hours a week into attending step meetings ? (only 2 meetings, 4 hours travel time for them)

I could write pages and pages on this. Maybe I will one day. But the truth is that it is very very simple. As much as I need to (and even enjoy to) sweat the ideology, the BAD WORD REMOVEDtos, the deios, the philosophy etc. and some of you may have noticed how much I really try and go the whole way with that... there is one thing that is much, much, much more important than all the sevoros and BAD WORD REMOVEDtos in the world... the goal.

And I had a goal. Four weeks ago yesterday, with Hashem's help, I realized that I had crossed a personal red line. And right then and there, I said, Hashem, never again. For those who know anything about teshuva, that's called azivas hachet --- permanently and finally abandoning sin. It took me 36 years to get there, and it took me to get addicted as I was never before (in the month before I finally realized that I had gone overboard, I got addicted as I had never been at any time in 36 years of addiction) and then finally I was able beChasdei Hashem to see that there was only one meaningful goal, total and absolute azivas hachet and total and absolute teshuva.

Now that may seem quite extreme to some. But the reality is that every frum Yid who has struggled with sex addiction has to know that there is no way forward with sex addiction without teshuva.

Every frum Yid who has struggled with sex addiction needs to understand that, surprising as it may seem, halacha lemaaseh the basic and fundamental minimum halachic requirement of teshuva is an absolute and total azivas hachet, a once and for all lifetime committment to stop for ever.

So, B"H after 36 years, finally I had the minimum goal that I needed for teshuva. And that goal was more important than any svoro, drosho, BAD WORD REMOVEDto or opinion that I could, would or did post or express here or anywhere.

So yes, I was totally convinced that the 12 steps were not for me. And, yes, I had gone out on a big limb taking on everyone here from Guard to Elya in trashing the 12 steps in the most public way imaginable. But, the goal of total azivas hachet was much bigger than all of that.

And if you have a goal as daunting as total azivas hachet it is easy to get very serious. And when you are very serious and you have a therapist who advises you to try a 12 step group once then no matter what you thought of the 12 steps, you instantly change your discussion from how the 12 steps are a disaster/scam etc. to, how can I make the 12 steps work for me?

Chasdei Hashem I discovered to my surprise that they can work for even the biggest arch-conservative (like me). But there is one pre-condition. You need to be honest about the absolute life and death necessity to make a total azivas hachet and teshuva sheleimo.

Yes, people say, take it easy, you have to take it slow etc. etc. I am not going to talk for others right now. I will first just speak for myself. I tried 36 years of that and all it did was to get me more addicted than ever. Having been there and done that I can tell you that for me at least all it was, was excuses. 100% excuses. Excuses to lower my sights on the goal that I really needed to take and excuses to constantly slip and fall, slip and fall.

And then, four weeks ago Monday, I finally came to the realization. Habo letaher mesayin oso is not just an inspirational saying it is a MASSIVE MECHAYEV.

If you aim for total azivas hachet you will be surprised at how much you will be prepared to do, how far you will be prepared to go and how much siyyatta dishmaya you can get.

On the other hand, if you go for anything less the overwhelming odds are that you will spend your time wavering, slipping and falling.

Having been there for 36 years I can tell you that it's a horrible place to be.

So, yes, we are all different, and we each have our own set of circumstances. But did you ever consider the possibilities of a real azivas hachet? Did you ever consider what it would be like to rid yourself of your addiction once and for all? Maybe you too can give yourself the break you deserve and go for the Gold. Why not try doing it the right way?  Why not try doing it whole way?

Take it from me it's so much easier, it's so much better.

OK so this post is something that I have been pushing off too busy to do for a long time. Every time I see Dov's name in a post I get a twang inside me that I know that there is something that I should be doing in my recovery but I am not.
So finally today I have mustered up the guts to do this, and I am doing it and not looking back!
"Do what" you ask?
Well intrigued fellow forum-er, I am glad that you asked, but get ready!

I have been doing some reading from ... a list of quotes and resources that gibbor120 links to at his the bottom of his postings.
Specifically the following lines from our very own dov.





So while I am only a 'junior' member here, and I won't critisise anyone that wants to remain anonymous and just work through the forums, handbooks etc, I feel that for myself personallyI don't want to live in a self imposed prison anymore, and I am sure that there are others deep down who would resonate with me on this. Now you can see where I am going with this...

... I am looking for a real person
:o :o :o

that is willing to create some kind of accountability/partner system between each other, but it must be in person or at the very least by phone but not purely email / PM or other types of anonymous, faceless interfaces like that. I am looking for the real deal here.
Someone else who is willing to co-operate with me and be partners together in this in real life. I am not criticizing anyone here who does not think that this is your thing C"V, I understand that everyone is different... but I know myself, and I know that if I don't create something real, something with a real link to my life, that I have to speak to face to face then I know that I am not really willing to change for real. I am just pretending. I am being fake, and ultimately I am only doing myself a disservice in continuing to destroy my Olam Habah. So I know that this might seem like quite an extreme move to many people over here I am 1000% serious about it.

Once again I am looking for someone also recovering and who is willing to try a real face to face or at least actual phone call meetings who will grow together with me in working through all this stuff and who will hold me accountable, and I will hold them accountable to real growth and change.

Now the technical stuff.
To make this work you need to be in the same city as me, or at least the same country so that time zone differences and all that don't complicate matters, and I think that it would help that we would be at similar points in life in terms of age and married etc, however if you think that all that is a non issue then I am willing to work together with you anyway.

So my details are (I am adapting this template from a board that Guard put together.)

Marriage Status: Single
Type: I grew up FFB-modern and I am now more yeshivish (or so I seem)
Location: Jerusalem, Israel
Would like: Partner
In touch by: Phone / Real Life / both
Intervals: Once a week, (but flexible)
Occupation: Studying in yeshiva, and doing a degree via correspondance

If you want to be that someone, then please PM me here, or alternatively you can email me at nebulamud@gmail.com

David
:o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o 8)

Football is a game played by men
Gotta run, hit da ground and get up again
Preparation durin' the week is a definite must
and so it is with recovery from lust.

Gotta shvitz, gotta train, muscles to build
Otherwise, you gonna get killed
Guys on the other side can be pretty tough
Scrownin' and growlin' their looks pretty gruff

If you ain't prepared and you're just skin and bone
Da coach (memories) will bench you - you'll be sittin' alone
you go on that field with a sly silly smile
Cornerback will kick you - for at least half a mile

And so it is when we wake up each morn
And that desire hits - I wanna watch porn
Are you prepared? Did you work on the steps?
Or were you preoccupied with women and sex?

The ultimate goal is to score a touchdown
But a cheerleader, a mascot or a silly clown
Won't get you those points if youre in the band
Playin' the game with the ball in your hand

Yippee I, yippee o; Go team go!
Silly jumpin' jacks - performin' a show
Makes you feel good - bit it takes no courage
Unless you join the big boys on the line of scrimmage.

It may be a sport, but it ain't for no patsies
No style points awarded - unlike the Grammies
All men are welcome to don the uniform and helmet
Work hard and get ready - you won't get the hatchet.

While the ultimate prize is one hundred yards
It's a large playin' field - must always be on guard
Can't do it all at once with a heave and a bomb
Do it methodically - must remain calm

Several yards at a time - over and over
Focused and vigilant - cant afford a turnover
Accumulate first downs - your opponent gets weary
Every ounce of confidence - it begins to get scary

Again and again - you knock him to the grass dirt
he's left starin' at the sky - flat on his bloodied & hurt
Not sure on the nimshal, but one thing's certainly known
To score points - you gotta get outta your comfort zone.

If you keep at what's easy - it'll be good for a while
But eventually you'll return to your old lifestyle
Try somethin' new - that you won't necessarily like
for otherwise, you will have that same old psych

Lust that's inside of us - it wants the big fix
"Connect with me; make me whole" - we were true addicts
Reality driven inward - the connection was magic
the remorse and emptiness - the cycle was tragic

End on a high note - the super bowl shuffle
One can get there - if his feathers he does ruffle
And yet, the focus gotta remain on the play that's ahead
and that decision is really a "life or death"

b'hatzlachah

nitzotzeloki wrote:


it is truly a pela!
did e see it on your nose?
did you have a "Dov" bumper sticker on your tallis bag?
what gave you away?
Is that normal to go over to a complete stranger?

what a story!

My list:
If I am the only one awake at 1am, it's not hurting anyone
If I fantasize, it's better than acting out with a real person
Everybody flirts anyway
Partially unclothed images are better than completely
It hurts to hold back/I need to release tension
It's just too hard to stop/I've been doing it too long
It's not a betrayal of love
I just want to check my email
It won't happen today
I won't happen again today
It won't happen before our phone meeting
I feel so great after the meeting it won't happen afterwards
I can use the internet by myself, I am not weak willed
No one will know
Acting out does not affect my tefilah
Acting out does not impinge on my love of life, positive attitude, simchas ha'Chaim
I am not holy enough to fight back yet, one day I will be there
It just feels so good
I need it
I will change tomorrow, just not now
I am in control
I have a better plan
I have a better plan
I have a better plan
I am the director, I can make anything happen when I want
I am normal
I am not an addict, I'm not like him, I'm not like them.  If I'm an addict, people will look down on me
I will go through the 12 steps and THEN BE IN CONTROL
It's not the worst addiction out there
I am strong enough to stop
I, I, I.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
PS - Thank you to the shipmate who submitted his of "excuses" he uses to fool himself into he's in control: 

dd wrote:


There's a great sefer called תשובה על רגל אחת. I think that is the one you are looking for.
.

Take it easy. Really, Teshuva is not an "event" it is a "process". Worry about one day at a time. Take recovery actions, and sometime down the road you will realize that you have been sober for 10 years and you are not quite sure how that happened.

Obsessing about doing teshuva today for an aveirah you have been doing for years (i can't remember your exact history) doesn't seem reasonable to me.

Keep on truckin, do the things that have helped others. Reach out to real recovering people.

You will have hatzlacha IY"H, but not al regel achas .

There was a lot of positive feedback on the highway signs; the oilam wanted more.

Here is the initial post, and below are the additions.

I would like to encourage you to KOT (keep on truckin'); I'm just not sure which highway you're on.
There are many roads here; most of them lead to the same direction.



is the Godly way. Hashem is here; Hashem is there; He will protect me from any second stare.



Then there is the "12 - steppers" and those who like parables dealin' with steak and sushi. Are you an addict? This might be for you? But then again; do you like raw fish; well-done ribs? Perhaps not then.



There are those who say the JDI approach (Just Do It); Get to 90 days and you'll be ok.



This is my personal favorite. Which direction you wanna go?

So bottom line; let us know more and each one of us will tell you what worked for us and what didn't.

First things first though....Get on da damn truck!

b'hatzlachah

additions:

No 'falls,' 'slips,' or 'accidents' on da road!


This one doesn't need a caption; we just need the rig up in front.


Who relates to this?


ya' think anyone is so haughty about his opinions? not on this site!


Scare tactic!


Bottom line; get on da freakin' road!

this is a topic that comes up here and there pretty often and with heated debates about how working on addictions has nothing to do with tshuva and working on tshuva has nothing to do with working on addictions and then of course there are those who still have a hard time buying that or swallowing that and argue the other side or at least they want to know sof sof what is going to be with doing tshuva.... vhadvarim yiduim vacm"l
anyway I just saw today something that i thought would be of interest to some of the oilam here- an unbelievable tshuva from rav vosner to someone asking for a seder tshuvas hamishkal for aveiros that had been done continuously for many years. rav vosner brings a yismach moshe that basically says that tshuva hamishkal is only neccesary for a one time aveira or even if it was done many one times but for an addiction it is enough the tremendous effort and accomplishment of getting over the addiction! the yismach moshe says this was revealed to him in a dream. rav vosner says we don't paskin based on dreams but this we paskin because it is true! (cheilek 4 tshuva 55)
they say the gedolim of our dor sit with the beis din shel maala since they understand the nisyonos of the dor so i'm sure rav vosner is there paskining this halacha lemaaseh mamash!

Wow. It's been a bumpy ride! Who woulda thunk I would be sitting here on day ninety writing a thanks?! But here it is.

Day ninety finally arrived, baruch Hashem!

I wrote a song in the honor of this momentous occasion - I know I left some people out, I hope you don't mind. Every single person on this site has helped me and is helping me.

Some people I didn't mention but I feel I should, are: Yechida, Yosef Hatzaddik, Blind Beggar, Gibbor120, Dms1234, Cordnoy [my OLD shver], Kilochalu, Eye.nonymous. There are probably others, all the gevaldige chevra on Duvid Chaim's call. The gevaldige chevra on the Yiddish Forum, Serentcher Rov especially. Really everybody. Ein mukdam umeuchar bato"dah. Kulam ahuvim kulam berurim!


אילו הראת לי דרך לשוב אליך בתשובה שלימה ולא נתת לי את הפארום, דייני.
אילו נתת לי את הפארום ולא נתת לי הערי'ס סאן וכו' וכדומה, דייני.
אילו נתת לי הערי'ס סאן וכו' וכדומה ולא נתת לי את זמירות שבת, דייני.
אילו נתת לי את זמירות שבת ולא נתת לי את גבורה שביסוד, דייני.
אילו נתת לי את גבורה שביסוד, ולא נתת לי את מר. אמונה, דייני.
אילו נתת לי את מר. אמונה ולא נתת לי את מחשבה טובה, דייני.
אילו נתת לי מחשבה טובה ולא נתת לי את כל החברים, דייני.
אילו נתת לי את כל החברים ולא נתת לי דוב'ס קאל, דייני.
אילו נתת לי את דוב'ס קאל ולא נתת לי חברותא בההענדבוק, דייני.
אילו נתת לי חברותא בההענדבוק ולא נתת לי המשך חברותא בענינים רבים אחרים, דייני.
אילו נתת לי המשך חברותא בענינים רבים אחרים, ולא נתת לי דוד חיים'ס קאל, דייני.
אילו נתת לי דוד חיים'ס קאל ולא נתת לי את האוינ"ק!, דייני.
אילו נתת לי את האוינ"ק ולא נתת לי את המאשרום טעיבעל, דייני.
אילו נתת לי את המאשרום טעיבעל, ולא נתת לי את המקום לחבורות, דייני.
אילו נתת לי את המקום לחבורות ולא נתת לי את פדיני ואת ליזשענסק, דייני.
אילו נתת לי את פדיני ואת ליזשענסק ולא נתת לי את אברם ואת ניצוץ, דייני.
אילו נתת לי את אברם ואת ניצוץ ולא נתת לי את השם'ס סאולדיער ואת איננא, דייני.
אילו נתת לי את השם'ס סאולדיער ואת איננא, ולא נתת לי את כל הזמנים ביחד, דייני.
אילו נתת לי את כל הזמנים ביחד, ולא נתת לי את דזשאו ענד טשארלי, דייני.
אילו נתת לי את דזשאו ענד טשארלי, ולא נתת לי את הפיפט סטעפ של אברם, דייני.
אילו נתת לי את הפיפט סטעפ של אברם ולא הראית לי אז דער באשעפער לאווט מיך אייביג!, דייני.
אילו הראית לי אז דער באשעפער לאווט מיך אייביג ולא נתת לי תשעים יום, דייני.
אילו נתת לי תשעים יום, ולא נתת לי באותו יום מיטינג עם דוד חיים, דייני.
אילו נתת לי באותו יום מיטינג עם דוד חיים, ולא הראית אותי גם את ההייליגע גארד, דייני.
אילו הראית אותי גם את ההייליגע גארד, ולא נתת לי מתנה ממנו, דייני.
על אחת כמה וכמה טובה כפולה ומכופלת למקום עלי על שהחייתני וקיימתני, כן תחייני ותקיימני עד שתאסוף גליותינו לחצרות קדשיך, לשמור חקיך, ולעשות רצוניך, ולעבדך בלבב שלם! על שאנו מודים לך! ברוך! א'ל ההודאות!

Now that I finally found it, I don't remember what I had wanted it for. But it brings out a great point, that the solution to our issues are sometimes found in an area that we never even thought of yet. Like instead of wearing a blindfold, maybe we need to work on self esteem (just an example)

Rabbi Twersky