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THIS IS IT! How anonymous should a forum be?!?!
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A platform of recovery for Jews who find themselves struggling with addictions to pornography, masturbation or other sexual problems. Post anonymously about your struggles without fear of anyone finding out who you are. Ask questions, post answers and be inspired! Get tips and guidance from the experts who moderate this forum, as well as from fellow strugglers.
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TOPIC: THIS IS IT! How anonymous should a forum be?!?! 2054 Views

THIS IS IT! How anonymous should a forum be?!?! 03 Nov 2011 23:13 #124220

  • nebulamud
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OK so this post is something that I have been pushing off too busy to do for a long time. Every time I see Dov's name in a post I get a twang inside me that I know that there is something that I should be doing in my recovery but I am not.
So finally today I have mustered up the guts to do this, and I am doing it and not looking back!
"Do what" you ask?
Well intrigued fellow forum-er, I am glad that you asked, but get ready!

I have been doing some reading from www.guardyoureyes.org/forum/index.php?topic=4380.0">this page, its a list of quotes and resources that gibbor120 links to at his the bottom of his postings.
Specifically the following lines from our very own dov.


1- Doing it that way[anonymously on this forum] puts me just where I want to be: in the driver's seat, defining myself based on my own research and offering myself my own favorite solutions. [Hey, that's exactly what all we frum liars have been doing all these years: trying our guts out to stop by gimmicks and compromises that "seem right for me". Who we are kidding eventually becomes clear...]...
...
3- By never admitting it all to another person, we never really admit it to Hashem. [Say, haven't I been davening shacharis, mincha, and ma'ariv all these years? Doesn't He really know everything about me anyhow? Well, apparently he is not that powerful a personal force in my life if I can still hide in the bathroom on my knees and masturbate to my sweet goddesses of schmutz... Nu.]  ...
...
5- By hiding behind a username and never peeping out from behind it to meet and create real relationships with real, sober people, we are doomed to forget. A friend of mine says "this is a disease of forgetting." ...
...
Far from bashing GYE - my point is that GYE is great as a 'gateway' medication for addicts. Good things start here. Friendships in person and by phone, and lots of other things become available to those who want them. GYE can also be also a great help to non-addicts who are swimming in desire and despondency. But again, a certain degree of 'coming out' is the price we all must pay for real friendships. One can pretend his 'friend's' name is really "Taikwondo613Help!" for only so long. Eventually it just gets stupid saying the fake name even just in writing, kal v'chomer on the phone. But some folks are just not ready to take that step. It's a kichsak'l self-imposed 'prison', if you ask me.


So while I am only a 'junior' member here, and I won't critisise anyone that wants to remain anonymous and just work through the forums, handbooks etc, I feel that for myself personallyI don't want to live in a self imposed prison anymore, and I am sure that there are others deep down who would resonate with me on this. Now you can see where I am going with this...

... I am looking for a real person
:o :o :o

that is willing to create some kind of accountability/partner system between each other, but it must be in person or at the very least by phone but not purely email / PM or other types of anonymous, faceless interfaces like that. I am looking for the real deal here.
Someone else who is willing to co-operate with me and be partners together in this in real life. I am not criticizing anyone here who does not think that this is your thing C"V, I understand that everyone is different... but I know myself, and I know that if I don't create something real, something with a real link to my life, that I have to speak to face to face then I know that I am not really willing to change for real. I am just pretending. I am being fake, and ultimately I am only doing myself a disservice in continuing to destroy my Olam Habah. So I know that this might seem like quite an extreme move to many people over here I am 1000% serious about it.

Once again I am looking for someone also recovering and who is willing to try a real face to face or at least actual phone call meetings who will grow together with me in working through all this stuff and who will hold me accountable, and I will hold them accountable to real growth and change.

Now the technical stuff.
To make this work you need to be in the same city as me, or at least the same country so that time zone differences and all that don't complicate matters, and I think that it would help that we would be at similar points in life in terms of age and married etc, however if you think that all that is a non issue then I am willing to work together with you anyway.

So my details are (I am adapting this template from a board that Guard put together.)

Marriage Status: Single
Type: I grew up FFB-modern and I am now more yeshivish (or so I seem)
Location: Jerusalem, Israel
Would like: Partner
In touch by: Phone / Real Life / both
Intervals: Once a week, (but flexible)
Occupation: Studying in yeshiva, and doing a degree via correspondance

If you want to be that someone, then please PM me here, or alternatively you can email me at nebulamud@gmail.com

David
:o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o 8)

P.S To the moderators. I am aware of the fact that this post could also have been placed in the Partners/Sponsors board, but I felt that it would be appreciated in the breaking free section also since it does bring up the debate of is my quest for anonymity getting in the way of my recovery and am I doing enough in terms of change/growth, which could get interesting.
Last Edit: 03 Nov 2011 23:23 by .

Re: THIS IS IT! How anonymous should a forum be?!?! 03 Nov 2011 23:46 #124223

  • obormottel
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Hey David!
..............................
Mottel
Baby steps.
If the road is pulling you down, it's a sign that you are going uphill, so just press harder on the gas!

Have a great day - unless, of course, you made other plans.
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Re: THIS IS IT! How anonymous should a forum be?!?! 04 Nov 2011 02:24 #124240

  • 1daat
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How 'bout skype, too.  You've got balls.  Great job. 
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Re: THIS IS IT! How anonymous should a forum be?!?! 04 Nov 2011 05:29 #124252

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Balls. Heh.

It seems that either we 'have balls' when it comes to recovery - or we end up using them for something else... :-[

Hey, you started...

Admin put these lines here cuz he likes 'em:
"The heart needs to be broken when will-power is not enough"
"Get off the 18-Wheeler and onto a tricycle!"
"The heck with me, what can I do for you?"
"I do not particularly care exactly which "lav" suicide is. I'm not interested in it for other reasons!"
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Re: THIS IS IT! How anonymous should a forum be?!?! 04 Nov 2011 08:12 #124265

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I am respectfully not going to try to top Dov.

...ball's in your court.
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Re: THIS IS IT! How anonymous should a forum be?!?! 04 Nov 2011 11:59 #124271

  • nebulamud
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The thing about skype is that it is still too impersonal. I want some thing face to face,or at least by phone. I need a real person for this. Someone who will link me to my other self, and show me that I am split into two different people, and they are both lying to each other. I need to cringe! www.guardyoureyes.org/forum/index.php?topic=4380.0">I need to see my space time continuum split apart I am referring to what dov said:


...Captain Kirk...
There was once an episode of Star Trek in which there was a time travel shtick, and the Kirk of the present, went 10 years into the past. Now, there was another Kirk then, too, right?

That was a big problem. The scientists told him that normally two of the same people cannot coexist. It just does not happen. But as this was an exception (it was a TV show and they were getting paid $15,000 per episode) as long as the old Kirk did not actually meet the present Kirk, all would be fine. However, if they actually met each other, the entire Time-Space Continuum would be 'ripped asunder' (chas veSholom). Under no circumstances could they be allowed to meet!
...How does a frum guy get all drawn into his very private porn, admitting by his actions its awesome, sweet power for him, and privately have sex with himself (masturbate) with such intensity and imaginative pleasure and power? OK, so he has shame, self-loathing, and sadness afterward. But how does he do both tefillin, teaching Torah, being mekareiv and really davening for others hard and really crying for the churban, and really working on his middos....and masturbating himself with a fantasy that could only mean he (secretly) also worships the beauty and power of those naked shiksas and the act of sex? How does such a contradiction survive in him?

How does it survive in us?
My answer to myself is simple. We learn to lie a little. We lie to others and we lie to ourselves. We'll quit really soon. We won't do it any more when we are twenty....or fifty. Never on Shabbos. Never with masturbation. Etc. All lies, to ourselves. And over time, we learn to lie more and more without even noticing it, just as you cannot see yourself grow.

When we are being good, we feel good about ourselves and we wish we could forget the bad stuff we did last night - we call that a hirhur teshuvah. Really it is just so we do not hate ourselves so badly, but that's OK. We learn not to face it right now by pretending that we are 'forgiven' by Hashem. That way, one persona does not invade the other so much. It gets put off till the next time, if we are lucky.

When we are being 'bad', we wish we could forget how devoted we are to Hashem and His Torah and to our wives and children and to honesty with society - because it just feels so good to do the porn and we really see no way out of it. We know we need it and do not in a million years believe there is really an alternative for us, in the end. We end up 'ignoring' our kedusha during the act. That is lying to ourselves, and again, one persona does not see the other simultaneously. Pretending we are really rotten to the core is a much more comfortable way to act out. Nu. Who wants to hurt so much?

We walk about for years and are tortured inside, for we know the dichotomy we are hiding - we are the dichotomy. But we do not really know what to do. We fight to make one side gain mastery over the other and call that hisgabrus al hayeitzer. And we fall. Then we assume we are horrible Jews, and assume that Hashem agrees with us about that. That mistake is a hard one to shake...(see step 2)

So now about the time-travel dilemma.
When we open up to others under a username (or fake English name in a meeting) and share the entire truth (which most rarely do) about our addiction, we are still hiding our 'good' persona - the real me. It's OK to let them know the horrible dirt - yeah, all of it - as long as they do not know the 'good' persona too well. The two are just incompatible.

Thos who got caught by their wives or children know exactly what I am talking about. They understand why they getting caught was so effectivbe for a time - the desire to use the porn left them as a result of getting both personae dragged into the room at the same time. The horror of getting caught with my pants down by a co-worker, son, daughter, or wife is truly intolerable to anyone who has experienced it. Why?

Because the hypocrisy is mercilessly forced to come to a bitter end. The Time-Space Continuum has ripped asunder. We look frantically for a place to bury ourselves. It's hell.

It is the two Kirks being forced to see eachother by a third party - and only a party who knows both personae can possibly do that. Till that happens, we are all players. Lying a bit about the 'real us' to ourselves and to others. 

Some of us insist on solving our problem without bringing the two personae together. Perhaps they are just avoiding the terribly painful end of their hypocrisy, perhaps not. I do not know what is best for another. But in my own case, I got caught, and it still didn't help. After a few weeks I was back at it and it got worse and worse until I couldn;t take it any more. i was begging for someone to rip off my cover and get me real! My wife could not do that, for she does not understand what I am talking about when I describe the desperation to get the sweet porn in my mind and heart and does not understand the allergy to it that I have.

So I needed real meetings - with real addicts. Perverts for decades who chose the path of sobriety because they had no choice. Just like me. People who can hear both sides of me. And I use my real name, wear my normal Jewish outfit, and talk with them freely about my real life.

And that flows out into being real with everybody else in my life, whether they know about my problem, or not.

And that is why so many of us are OK with goyim in meetings, but shrink into a corner when they meet a frum yid. There is a common strong desire to avoid and evade. And I do not blame them, for I had that, too. Here is a guy who can bring them even closer to the true full self! It's more pain to go through. But more healing, too. 

Interestingly, I have seen newly recovering program-guys meet people from the meeting in public places just 'out of the blue' and totally ignore them, as if they didn't know them at all. Those guys did not remain sober. I think they may have been shocked by the cross-over from their 'meeting life' into their 'real life'. They were not willing to smile discreetly and say a polite "Hi" to the other guy. Instead, here was trouble - "so get away from me quick." Oy vavoi.

This is precisely why AA has a strong tradition of real anonymity. We do not reveal the identity of anyone else we meet in the rooms to non-members. Ever. But it's not about shame, at all. It's because sharing the secrets of others will not help their recovery at all! Only the truth that they want to share will help them.

So I think that in order to do this, I need a real person.
Offer is still on the table people! What do you say?
P.S Thanks to all the Hero members over here for showing your support. It really means a lot to me.
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Re: THIS IS IT! How anonymous should a forum be?!?! 04 Nov 2011 13:33 #124278

  • gibbor120
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WAY TO GO Nebula..... er I mean David.  Nice you meet YOU
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Re: THIS IS IT! How anonymous should a forum be?!?! 04 Nov 2011 13:42 #124281

  • nebulamud
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gibbor120 wrote on 04 Nov 2011 13:33:

WAY TO GO Nebula..... er I mean David.  Nice you meet YOU

Thanks, your link in your 'anchor' of all your posts led to my inspiration.

P.S. You can call me nebula if you prefer 
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Re: THIS IS IT! How anonymous should a forum be?!?! 04 Nov 2011 13:48 #124283

  • gibbor120
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I must say, it is quite thrilling to see that something I did actually helped someone!  I started it mostly for my own benefit because I couldn't keep track of the dov quotes that really spoke to me.  I'm absolutely thrilled that they helped someone else.  You really made my day!

I recently started a new Dov Quotes thread here www.guardyoureyes.org/forum/index.php?topic=4695.0 .

I wish you continued success progressive victory over lust .
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Re: THIS IS IT! How anonymous should a forum be?!?! 04 Nov 2011 18:07 #124322

  • AlexEliezer
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I'm in the States, married with kids, 99.99% straight, and middle-aged.  So just wanted to say yasherkoach for your work over the past couple of weeks and for this thread.

Next time I'm in J-lem (not often) I'd love to have a beer with you.  Unless you come to the States first.
Last Edit: 14 Nov 2011 19:39 by .

Re: THIS IS IT! How anonymous should a forum be?!?! 06 Nov 2011 21:26 #124468

  • Yosef Hatzadik
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Dear NebulaMud;


Have you looked into SA meetings in your area? They are a GREAT way to find real good REAL Recovery friends!!!!



In the future (sometime), Rabbeinu Guard is planning to somehow try to organize LIVE meetings under the auspices of the great & holy GuardYourEyes.org Network!!!!
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Re: THIS IS IT! How anonymous should a forum be?!?! 06 Nov 2011 21:28 #124469

  • Yosef Hatzadik
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BTW there are a couple of guys who used to hang around the GYE Forum went to SA in Yerushalayim.
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Re: THIS IS IT! How anonymous should a forum be?!?! 06 Nov 2011 22:54 #124483

  • nebulamud
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Yosef Hatzadik wrote on 06 Nov 2011 21:26:

Dear NebulaMud;


Have you looked into SA meetings in your area? They are a GREAT way to find real good REAL Recovery friends!!!!



In the future (sometime), Rabbeinu Guard is planning to somehow try to organize LIVE meetings under the auspices of the great & holy GuardYourEyes.org Network!!!!

Wow the amazing Yosef haTzaddik I am honored. I hadn't seriously considered SA but you ad a few others have now recommended it to me so I have just sent them an email tellig them my story ad asking them if i could join their meetings and I will post my progress whenbi hear from them. I just wanted to thank everyone here fore all your support here. I still feel overwhelmed that so many people care about me. It is something that I am dealing with ib therapy, an internal sense of shame and worthlessness but to see you all care about me so much just makes me... :'( ... But out of ;D  Thank you my friends. I am so grateful to you all.
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Re: THIS IS IT! How anonymous should a forum be?!?! 07 Nov 2011 16:05 #124595

  • Yosef Hatzadik
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Every time I see this I need to reread it!

NebulaMud wrote on 06 Nov 2011 22:54:

Wow the amazing Yosef haTzaddik I am honored.


Because this:
NebulaMud wrote on 06 Nov 2011 22:54:

...an internal sense of shame and worthlessness but to see you all care about me so much ...  Thank you my friends. I am so grateful to you all.

..is applicable to me too!!

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Re: THIS IS IT! How anonymous should a forum be?!?! 11 Nov 2011 11:30 #125204

  • nebulamud
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So I contacted SA in Jerusalem a week ago by email, but I haven't recieved a reply. Maybe the one in charge of the emails only speaks Hebrew, but that got me thinking, I have some conversational hebrew but if the whole SA group here is in Hebrew, I am not sure how much I would get out of such an experience. Does anyone have any details of the Jerusalem SA group?
Also my offer still stands, if anyone is interested in this accountability thing, let me know via PM
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