I’m unfamiliar with the acronym.

You don’t have to be. You are actively choosing to engage, so please don’t act like you are above it.

What are you here for ? The Emuna question or the kedusha question?

livingpalpitation wrote on 09 Sep 2024 02:17:

im actually below it, im still dealing with practical stuff below the belt ...................

Both. I think you need both. Sure, you can deal with this issue in a completely irreligious way but in order to accept the prohibition, I need to understand where it came from and whether there is a prohibition to begin with.

those Q were already answered in previous posts.

Please link to them.

livingpalpitation wrote on 09 Sep 2024 02:35:

ill sum it up for you,

it came from god.
god prohibited it.

should be clear now

livingpalpitation wrote on 09 Sep 2024 02:35:

If you want to stop masturbating ect, the way to do it isn't to think of reasons why its bad to masturbate. You need to figure out in your life why it will be good if you were a non masturbator. If the only reason why you wanted to stop is because of the prohibition, than experience has shown that you will unfortunately have a difficult time stopping.

Most people here myself included focusing on the prohibition was part of the issue. It made me feel worse about myself for doing horrible things which in turn led me to self medicate by doing horrible things which in turn led me to feel horrible  which in turn led me to self medicate by doing horrible things which in turn led me to feel horrible which in turn led me to self medicate by doing horrible things which in turn led me to feel horrible which in turn led me to self medicate by doing horrible things which in turn led me to feel horrible which in turn led me to self medicate by doing horrible things which in turn led me to feel horrible which in turn led me to self medicate by doing horrible things which in turn led me to feel horrible which in turn led me to self medicate by doing horrible things which in turn led me to feel horrible which in turn led me to self medicate by doing horrible things which in turn led me to feel horrible which in turn led me to self medicate by doing horrible things which in turn led me to feel horrible which in turn led me to self medicate by doing horrible things which in turn led me to feel horrible which in turn led me to self medicate by doing horrible things which in turn led me to feel horrible which in turn led me to self medicate by doing horrible things which in turn led me to feel horrible...... ( thank you Hashem for copy paste)

Edit - Thanks Voldy for pointing out that the good part about copy paste is that spelling mistakes are included

Oy, I don't know why I'm getting involved here, but I guess i enjoy a bit of fun. First, I think our OP has a valid, interesting question. I think some of the responses were not satisfactory, they didn't address the question, they just made statements about what they believe. They may even have seemed like a bit of virtue signaling. Having said that, @livingpalpitation, you kind of asked for it with your style as well. It sounded a bit snobby, perhaps. 

Now, it's kind of ironic that the ultraorthodox here completely accept the prohibition, perhaps even believing fervently that it is Biblically circumscribed by G-d Almighty Himself. Nevertheless, they find it challenging to actually follow the law, because it is so darn hard, which leads to sooo much guilt and returning to the poisoned waters... Our other friend isn't sure it's forbidden at all, but seems confident that if it is, he can make himself stop (perhaps he's just not prepared to put in the work if it's not really assur). If that's the case, we have much to learn from you, though you may not need GYE.

To the question: the premise of the question has nothing to do with masturbation per se. It has to do with how you view the process of Halacha and Stare decisis more generally, as mentioned earlier. It is a fascinating topic; again, one which has been written about a great deal by the Poskim, and academics. Obviously, GYE is practically oriented and is focused on how to stop, and this forum is simply not made for this kind of Halachic/ Emuna discussion. Like I said, people may talk about it offline; I just had an hour-long conversation about it with one of our friends here, but on the forum things will continue to be like reading from the teleprompter to great ado, without adding substance. (I don't why I suddenly decided to care about what does and does not belong here; plus I like the topic).

Any legal system accepts precedent, and certainly to change a law requires major legal wrangling and procedural due process. Here, to uproot a law established millennia ago, by asking a simple question--- this is simply not how it works, in any legal system. This does not negate the question, however. (Again, I am not referring to masturbation specifically; it is a question that affects many areas of Halacha). 

The question is great, but this isn't the place for a conversation of this kind (as is evident by the responses).

Having said that, it may be worth thinking about whether our sense of requirement to stop is different if it is "assur", vs if G-d "does not want" us to do it. Meaning, let's say you think that it doesn't say anywhere in the Torah that you are forbidden to masturbate, and even in maase Onan it doesn't say it's assur; you can argue it's merely inferred that G-d does not like that behavior.
Is that not enough? Does the Lord have to state unequivocally that you may not do it or you will burn for it? 

That's all for now

livingpalpitation wrote on 09 Sep 2024 02:35:

In your original post you said "I hope this is the first step on a journey to rid myself of a profoundly insidious habit". Regardless of the source of your beliefs that this habit is insidious, you can get help for it here.

Livingpalpitation, let’s say it’s a Mitzva to Masturbate. Where would that take you today??

Here’s one of (many :-) gold dov posts, linked in my sig below. 

Masturbation is Evil... But That is Quite Irrelevant

What do you think about it?

Markz wrote on 09 Sep 2024 03:28:

Excellent !! As usual...

OK, after eating myself up all morning about calling something kefira without being absolutely sure I finally had some compassion on myself and figured out where I was coming from...I was pretty sure the prohibition on wasting seed was biblical, either from the story of Er and Onen or from the section on the Arayot about not giving your seed to Molech...that's why I thought it was kfira -- Moses had the BIG picture; we don't argue with the Chumash.

Not sure how this holds up in the eyes of a talmid chacham who knows to and succeeds to research before talking, since I'm not.

(Why do we know he had the BIG picture?  Because so did everyone else, at least briefly -- we heard G-d speak and knew it was G-d, and collectively decided to protect that memory.)

Anyhow sorry for being mean

richtig wrote on 09 Sep 2024 03:17:

Uh-oh. Arguments about Torah hashkafa are one thing, but if you're boldly stating the value of legal precedent you're really wading into the American kulturkampf

All kidding aside. Richtig I really liked your posts on this thread.

I'm also upset I came so late to this popcorn thread. 

But has anyone ever gotten clean because they suddenly realized masturbating is assur?? 

It really doesn't matter much if it's an issur deaorraisa, d'rabbanan, a minhag, something the Arizal decided, or totally muttar. (Although that is totally important to know to properly adhere to bal tosef.) If it's hurting your life, stop because it hurts. If it's not hurting your life, religious guilt is 99% guaranteed to not be enough to make you stop.

Ugh, sorry, more to say
chosemyshem wrote on 09 Sep 2024 14:12:


I think someone with a clear concept of G-d, that He loves and wants us to lead happy and fulfilling lives, can darshen "it's assur" as "even if it seems like I'm doing myself a favor doing this, I'm not" which is a helpful thought sometimes.