Muttel wrote on 26 Sep 2024 17:04:
Bennyh wrote on 26 Sep 2024 16:02:
I'm very skeptical of the long term efficacy of this mehalech. It goes against human nature and how Hashem created us. Hashem designed it so that we are drawn and are attracted to the female physique and everything about them. There's nothing rational about that attraction.
Are you horny for a female rabbit? No? But male rabbits sure are! But there's nothing sexual about them! It's just a rabbit! The male rabbit looks at your hot neighbor and can't understand what your struggle is! There's nothing sexual about her at all! It's just another scary human! Who was once a baby!
There is a reason why nature works this way, of course. To work against that and convince yourself that, aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaakshully, women are disgusting/smelly/cranky/poopy/human, is like trying to swim upstream while masturbating.
Maybe it can help in the beginning stages of breaking free to help shake off the ingrained habits, but I don't see how going against nature could be successful in the long term. For you might try to train your brain to say ew ew ew, but in a weak moment your oblivious groin will say yum yum yum. And then you'll beat yourself up for desiring something so "disgusting", as you've trained your brain to think that way.
What I found that works for me is being very aware of how I will feel like after I indulge. I will feel like garbage. It will hurt how I think about my wife. I will desire something that I'll never have. So why torture myself? That kind of self talk directly addresses the emotional pull of lust, instead of trying to intellectualize it.
Again, perhaps different strokes for different folks, but count me skeptical.
I wasn't clear. When I speak of parts of women unattractive, I am not trying to say "don't be attracted!" I am attracted to my wife even with her very human tendencies. Rather, I am trying to drill into myself that they are deeper than skin deep sex toys. They are a complete human beings with
parts that I don't like that just make them human-like. Not to say they aren't attractive, but if I can see they are a complete human, I won't view them sexually.
Being attracted is different than viewing someone sexually.
Hope I'm clearer now!
Muttel
I like the original post, Benny’s riposte, and Muttels clarification. But I want to add a point. To address Benny’s response here
This shprach of “just humanize them” implies that it’s wrong/immoral/misogynistic if you view a woman sexually. And while to a certain extent that’s true, because they’re certainly not only sexual beings, they still very much are sexual beings.
When you view them sexually, you’re interpreting the situation correctly. Twisting your mind into pretzel to tell yourself that they’re “full human beings” will not convince your lizard brain that it doesn’t see what it sees.
I disagree with this point. And I want to explain. I know that humanising women that you see doesn’t work for a lot of people, but it does work for me.
Part of why it works for me is because of the line I bolded in the post above. To me, the point isn’t that women I meet have bad breath and flaws. That doesn’t do anything for me. However, because Im not 17 anymore, once I see a person as a person, the pull that I would feel to her, as a person, would be the pull of
attraction, (flavored and spiced, of course, by sexual desire and lust). Attraction has to do with a a relationship with the whole person. Now for an healthy human male, it’s obvious that there will be a greater potential pull of attraction if the woman is pretty and sexy.
But, as I said, I’m not 17 any more. And I have a great wife, who I’m attracted to. So once my brain is feeling the pull of attraction , it’s easier to for the other part of my brain to kick in, help me back off and say: I don’t know her, and don’t really want to, and she’s probably not that nice at all (and I’d
never want to wake up next to her!).
The lizard brain you’ve talking about, for me, kicks in, in its raw untrammelled form, if I have the misfortune to see a mostly naked body. My brain blares a trumpeting of pure lust and wants to react with pure physical sexuality. Hard to fight that. BH, with Siyata Dishmaya and carefulness I do my damned best to avoid that kind of thing these days.
What Muttel is saying, and/or what works for me, is this. If I erroneously look at a woman I meet as a naked body that happens to be surrounded by inconvenient clothes, the lizard brain kicks in.
When I train myself to see instead, a person- e.g. a mother feeding a child, a daughter hurrying to catch a bus, or a wife shopping for her husband, I can know that they aren’t mine, and more easily react accordingly, even if they are highly attractive women.
This is not incorrect biologically either, because Hashem wired us to want to get married and connect and love a woman, not just bed them. Tapping in to where the former instinct lands is a way to avoid the latter lizard.