would want to wanna be ehrlich wrote on 10 Jun 2024 03:12:

I sent you a private message. 
Muttel

sunnyhawk83 wrote on 10 Jun 2024 03:22:

I can tell you that since I started here 33 days ago, I’ve learned many tools to fight off the YH. I had a talmid (19 yrs old) approach me about his porn/masturbation struggles and he is now on a program I started for him like HHM’s. He’s 3 days clean. 
who knows if this is why I had to fall, but the good work here is helping others………

Muttel

sunnyhawk83 wrote on 10 Jun 2024 03:28:

I guess the question is would the percentage of Rabbeim differ than the percentage amongst the rest of the frum population?
There was a study done about the general percentage of frum people struggling, but my filter blocks even searching for it lol.

I guess we'd like to think the percentage of rabbbeim struggling would be lower, but who knows. . .

Muttel wrote on Unknown:

Hi Muttel,
it's absolutely amazing to hear that you're finding tools that work for you and that you've had the great zechus to guide your talmid, however, in my opinion, its not a good thing to be involved so far as to know how many days clean your talmid is. 
(I was going to write this to you in a private message but I think it's an important point that many people/rabeeim/mentors make a mistake about...)
One should guide a talmid to the right resources but then leave them on their own journey. Perhaps check in from time to time to see he's got things under control, but always very general and without going into detail. (Unless the talmid is unable to do it on his own, or perhaps has very deep/big issues, in which case they must be referred to a proffesional.)
And even if he's really open about it and happy to share details about his journey e.g. how many days clean etc., still, I believe its harmful for your personal journey and for the journey of your talmid to be too enmeshed and it can also end with a very uncomfortable situation. 

Much Haztlocho,
UpAndDown

upanddown wrote on 10 Jun 2024 13:21:

Definitely respect your point - In regard to the general point you're making however, are you familiar with HHM's 30-day accountability program? that's where my inspiration came from, as it's helping me and countless others....

Muttel

chosemyshem wrote on 10 Jun 2024 13:21:

I'm curious too -- about what there would be to gain from knowing this information?

He needs to let me know at the end of every day that he was clean- at the end of 30 days he gets $100.
Nothing like accountability....
I'm just sharing the info here to give other's chizuk that our mess-ups can prove to be used to spread kedusha in the world.....
This is HHM's program, and I'd encourage all of you to do it!

Muttel

upanddown wrote on 10 Jun 2024 13:21:

Can you elaborate on the pros and cons of what you are describing? We can appreciate your important point better if you could explain why this is your recommendation. Thank you!

Maskim, there's not really any toiles in knowing...SPOILER ALERT TO THE WORLD, Rabbeim also have to deal with the nisyonos of this generation (not the Rabbeim I grew up with of course, only me and my buddies), the internet being at someones disposal in the palm of their hand.... R"L.
-R' Muttel. I love what that you're able to help your talmid, Sending to a therapist trained in this is definitely great, but why not have a Rebbe to guide him, he already has a kesher with you and opened up! As long as you are confident that the hadracha you're giving him is tried and true. The only thing I'm concerned about is that when a person is not "cured" from this machla, and hes giving advice to others, it could be that his advice can come out in a biased way, and at some point not come from a true source, rather one with nigeeyus because he's suffering from the same thing, and if R"L the Rebbe hits a falling point of his own, then what type of advice is he going to give his talmid then???

sunnyhawk83 wrote on 11 Jun 2024 01:18:

I actually reached out to HHM today to receive his guidance on this matter. Following his advice, I will continue looking to help my talmid and daven I don’t fall! 

Bh I have R HHM to ask if chv my road gets bumpy. Bh I’m in a good spot now and have the mentors here to refer my talmid to if I chv can’t continue guiding him…..

I sincerely appreciate all the thought, care, and concern in these posts,
Muttel

BenHashemBH wrote on 10 Jun 2024 13:36:

Sure, I'll explain. I might be making a mistake but this is what I think, based on my own experience:
1. It can be harmful for the Talmid because he is not really working on his Kedusha but rather doing it for external reasons, because he's pressured by you, knowing that he will have to tell you that he fell... and even if he succeeds to stay clean for 30 days, its unlikely to last because he hasn't really worked on himself to understand how to fight HIS Yetzer Hara. He just wants to please you and not to embarrass himself on a daily basis. Accountability is a great thing but one must find the correct balance.
The incentive of giving $100 at the end of 30 days is ok (especially for beginners who think that there's no chance of overcoming an urge), but why is it necessary to check in every day whether he's fallen or not? I don't see the need. Give him some space to work on this great nisayon which is essentially בין אדם לקונו.
2. It's harmful for yourself because hearing someone else's falls (in a personal way, not anonymously) has a negative effect on your own journey. It may weaken you subconsciously. As it says הרואה סוטה בקלקולה יזיר עצמו מן היין, even though you saw her in her most embarrassing moment, still it has a disructive effect on you as it weakens the sinsirety of the sin. Everyone has their own type of YH and their unique charactaristics to be able to deal with their YH. If you (unintentionally) adopt his YH you might not be able to overcome it...
3. It may end you up with a very uncomfortable situation. Because this accountability thing won't last long and as soon as for whatever reason he's not interested anymore (because he fell too often or he's just not quite ready to fight his YH passionately), he will try to avoid you instead of getting help. משא”כ if you guide him without going too deep into his "kishkes" then he's more likely to keep a healthy relationship with you and ask for more guidance when he needs it.
In extreme cases it could also result in a crush on each other which also doesn't end well (I have some personal experience with similar type of situation..)

Obviouviously groups in which people get together to work on these things is a totally different story for a number of reasons...

So yes of course help and guide your Talmid, but without asking him on a daily basis whether he fell or not...

Does anyone agree with me?

Thank you for elaborating. Your points are well made. In regards to number 1, is that not what some people are doing here on GYE and many find it helpful?
kol tov. 

Every rebbi and every talmid are different. Every rebbi/talmid relationship is different. The circumstances of different people's triggers and falls are unique. There are some rebbeim that should mentor talmid A and not talmid B; there are some rebbeim that definitely should not mentor any talmidim about this inyan.  There is no way on anonymous forum that this can be decided and made into a "rule". Each situation needs its own analyzation and b'syatta d'shmayas its own plan of action.

Hatzlocha to all.

BenHashemBH wrote on 11 Jun 2024 02:31:

No, what people are doing on GYE is anonymous. That doesn't harm your personal, real internal Avoida.

I agree to some extent on the mentoring but just a Rebbi telling his talmidim that they can come speak to him in private if they are dealing with this struggle to let them know they have someone they can confide in and not be judged is beyond priceless. This is especially true for a rebbi who himself has dealt with the struggle and can truly empathize. I know from speaking with my sons directly about this (something that would have been impossible not that long ago) BH this has definitely been happening in certain yeshivos.  The more rebbeim get involved especially at the mesivta level the better the chance of nipping this problem at its earliest stages.