Could you articulate the difference between GYE Brotherhood accountability and motivations (where one could lie or hide the truth), vs inspiration, fear, or general thoughts about Hashem, ourselves, our wives, children, Rabbeim, and friends?

Why is this really so different? Do I feel bad that my chavrusa is part of my motivation to learn Torah, accepting that I'd be less committed to a seder on my own? Maybe yes, but also this is my life's circumstances, so I don't think a chavrusa makes my commitment superficial. To me that is a Yetzer Hara tying to belittle meaningful accomplishments by thinking we are relying on a handicap. My humanity that Hashem gave me is my handicap - by design. 

If one stubs their toe, they probably don't need a wheelchair to get around. If one broke both legs, then they do - at least for a time. We should use whatever tools are available to help us heal and move forward. Balance and progress.

As you say Reb Chaim, GYE is Hashem's grace. Can the social motivators not be a component of Hashem's gift to help us?


I don't know, it just doesn't feel right to me, thinking about where I'd be without X, Y, and Z when it ultimately is bringing me closer to Hashem in this moment.

I agree to your point, Ben, and I’m glad to use every tool that Hashem has given me, especially the ones that I need and that are working for me. 

There are two points that make it a bit different than your Chavrusa analogy, though. 

1. Thompson and Shem were talking about the social media aspect of posting on GYE. It harnesses motivational aspects that aren’t so pretty or ideal. Exhibitionism, creating a somewhat false online persona, hubris and ego. Yeah, it works. But thinking about it is diminishing. Thompson was rightfully poking fun about the fact that I was framing a post in my mind while I was being Omed Binisayon. Mixing in not-so-pretty motivators isn’t ideal. 

That’s why I prefer the growth that comes from the genuine friendships and aspects of brotherhood that I’ve developed through the connections I’ve forged here. That’s real and there’s nothing ugly or fake about those relationships. They know who I really am. And if I don’t want to let my friends down and I would be embarrassed to, well that’s a healthy tool that I’ve been courageous enough to use. I feel good about that. 

2. Let’s be honest. I wish I would be a person who has the inner strength and fortitude to deal with these challenges without crutches. Maybe I could have been, had I not made bad choices when I was much younger. I’ve written about this in the past, and there’s no need to review. I proud and glad of where I am now, and I’m going to keep growing. I’m happy with myself. But speeches about how I am a hero will not remove the pain of knowing that I am less than many of those I admire and try to emulate. And that’s ok, because the main thing is for me to serve Hashem with my Avoda today. And I’m gonna crush that, with His help, and yours. 

מאן דבעי חיים

Reb CO, thanks for your beautiful posts! You never fail to inspire.
You write: "I wish I would be a person who has the inner strength and fortitude to deal with these challenges without crutches." While I understand you, I ask you to think about a guy, who maybe has not been challenged with your challenges, and he's a person you admire, but does he have the inner strength and fortitude to deal with these challenges at all???? Maybe, but as for you, we know the answer. This is HUGE!!!!! How many people are ready to bare their hearts and souls and do WHATEVER it takes to get past these challenges?!
And, they are not crutches, They are tools. They are like feeling "I wish I didn't have to eat". Well, we have to. Crutches means there's something wrong with me, and I need this. No, there's nothing wrong or damaged about my holy, shining, LIVING CHAIM brother!
The only point that really bothers you is that you feel the silly choices you made have changed you to require you to need this. My friend, I have no idea how Hashem's plans work, but as I've asked you in the past, if you would have made only smart choices, where would we all be?!?!?!? We need you! And BH we have you. 
There's no question that these questions are not something we should think about. Just remember that you, and your posts, are a world of inspiration.
P.s. Thompson is right. You SHOULD be thinking about posting. Because how dare you not share inspiration with us?!

chaimoigen wrote on 17 Sep 2024 23:20:

Rebeinu Chaim,
Respectfully, I hear everything you are saying except this. Unless the Ribono Shel Olam leaked your report card (and theirs), how can you call yourself less? We have no way to know and comparisons to other people stop short after the motivation. Only Hashem judges. 

Thinking about this more, I want to clarify. Human beings are inherently limited. We cannot do many, many things. When we suffer pain, and chazal tell us דאגה בלב איש ישיחנה לאחרים, that means we need others. That's nothing more than human limitations. We must learn to accept and respect those limitations. They are not a damage that we should wish wouldn't exist. We should not feel any shame when turning to others for help! That's the way Hashem made me, and if you don't like it לך לאומן שעשאני and tell him so! I am not embarrassed by the limitations that Hashem has placed on me. I accept them with equilibrium.
As far as the question of our choices and the path we caused ourselves to take, I know that the whole issue is way above my paygrade. I do know that Reb Tzadok writes a huge chiddush that when a person does teshuva m'ahava it becomes revealed that the action that he's doing teshuva for was what Hashem had wanted should happen all along. I know, not all agree. And I know that I don't fully understand it.
And I also know that Hashem needed Reb Chaim Oigen to be here with us, to inspire, to lend a warm hand, to wake us, direct us, and to walk alongside us and make sure we are not so lonely on this journey to freedom.
Reb CO, I hope you'll forgive me for what I'm about to say.
Thank you for making those choices. And thank you for showing us what we can accomplish after we have made our own silly choices.

With true admiration and respect
באהבה עזה ועמוקה
so grateful for your friendship,
Eerie

So I guess I'll jump in here, too (after wondering whether r chaimke wrote that line partly to jimmy up these responses... life happens between the lines...
I one heard from a famous rav who grew up secular, that he knows he'll never be like his friends Rav Asher or Rav Zvi Cheshin, who were learning their whole life. But, and he said something like this: "I know I'm not סוג א, I'm סוג ב. But my whole contribution is davka from my being סוג ב".

Is there a סוג ג?  Where one never seems to get out of the trenches, and cant go more then 5 days, let alone 50, or 500, without lusting, yet still gets up in the morning trudging thru another day, drowning but still swimming, davening and learning, broken to the core but still showing up, commiting and commiting again. Maybe we are not worthy to be called a סוג, but we are still in hashems army, because we still are with the program, hoping, yearning, crying, for what? For the same kirvas elokim, but we haven't been answered yet, maybe one day.

mggsbms wrote on 18 Sep 2024 02:58:

Maybe, just maybe, this is the סוג א. Exactly what HKBH wants from you  right now

mggsbms wrote on 18 Sep 2024 02:58:

Good question. 

I feel that I have been to a large part, part of this illustrious group. Not in the same way as you, but I resonate with it!
Happens to be that I’m clean of P-to-the-power-of-M for some while, but I consider that a gift of time, not much work on my behalf. 

There is something I found which helps - mggsbmsyou can PM

Keep on Trucking. 
5 days at a time 

Debating on the forum takes time.... therefore.....  At the upcoming GYE Shabbos convention, the panel will discuss this and similar thought provoking questions.....

P.S. All participants must wear paper bags on their heads...

mggsbms wrote on 18 Sep 2024 02:58:

My dear friend, I know it's hard as hell, but you have been answered. Red took the words out of my mouth. If you are fighting, then you are winning! The soldiers who come back from the battlefield with scars and wounds, and some who never heal, are the ones who receive the greatest medals! You, and the many, many people just like you, who continue to fight, despite setback after setback, despite having so much stacked against them, and every day give it a fresh shot, I have no idea where you draw those reservoirs of strength from, and I know that I am not worthy of the medal you will receive.
With much admiration,
Eerie

Hashem Help Me wrote on 18 Sep 2024 04:20:

When we start to cry what happens to the paper bags?
I vote for a plastic bag

eerie wrote on 18 Sep 2024 06:15:

Eerie I think you know that the line I highlighted is not really true. Sounds nice and inspirational and all, but that doesn't make it true.

People fight and lose. People die on the battlefield all the time. Our actions have consequences. Bechira is the most powerful tool mankind possesses and when used for evil it leaves scars. 

What you perhaps meant to say was that we cannot comprehend Hashem's calculus of the deeds of man, which takes into account actions, thoughts, capabilities, abilities, situation, what was given to him, the overall relationship with hashem and a million other details that make up the comprehensive state of a person's avodas Hashem. And that someone who does a lot of aveiros can be closer to Hashem than someone who does more mitzvos. And that striving to come close to Hashem is a beautiful thing even if it feels like you're failing.

But you don't get extra credit for fighting stupidly. Imagine a soldier who comes back from a battle bloody and broken. He comes to the king and asks for a Purple Heart, a Medal of Honor with the Tiffany Cross etc. The king asked him how he got so injured, and the soldier proudly boasts that he charged enemy lines with just a knife and killed 3 enemy soldiers before being taken captive and tortured for years. And though he was tortured brutally, he never gave up hoping and eventually escaped. 

The king smacks the soldier in the face and orders him arrested for treason. "You idiot," he shouts at the soldier, "You're a fighter pilot. Why did you do something so idiotic like attacking an army with a knife." 

Fighting stupidly is not valor. Fighting a harder fight than you need to does not earn you schar nor does it bring you closer to Hashem. There are people who think they are fighting when all they are doing is bashing their brains out by banging their head over and over against the wall.

Obviously, it's very difficult to know and be self-honest about how much of the fight is a self-imposed hardship. But someone who's been struggling for years might be a precious HEROtm who is doing the best they can in a very difficult nisayon. And his 100% effort is all the more precious for being put in such dark places. But he also might be an idiot who has refused G-d's helping hand and directions out of the maze over and over again. 

Something that's been a lifelong issue for me is using bitachon to justify atzlus.

Stop using bitachon as an excuse.

chaimoigen wrote on 17 Sep 2024 18:38:

Petty Officer Second Class Oigen, I appreciate your honesty. Good stuff. The whole post can technically be summed up in the eight words that are the title of your thread.

I have to disagree with what you wrote later:



Almost. I don't care what percentage of a person's motivations are pure and how much is ego-driven. We're trapped here with an ego and until death do us part. I was poking fun at the fact that your post pretended like the ego reason doesn't exist. Give it a tiny shoutout. Stay real.

BH, I'm now 15 days clean for the first time in a while and enjoying it. This is in part because I decided on RC Elul and want to give it a shot, at least until Rosh Hashana. Another great factor is that I made it public and Corporal Shem challenged me, and now my ego is at stake.
I'm okay with that. Whatever keeps me out of the mud.

Shem, 
I agree with what you’ve written. 

But I also want to say that I started crying when I read mggsbms’s post. And I couldn’t bring myself to respond publicly (though I sent him a pm), because, for me, I could only muster silence in the face of such emotion. 

Shem, I know you’re sharing thoughts that are deeply personal, very contemplative and revealing, and are the product of work, turmoil, anguish and hoping. You know how much I respect you. And I happen to agree and have gained from everything you wrote - it’s a brilliant post.

 But just in case mggsbms feels criticized after baring the wounds in the most vulnerable part of his Neshoma, I’m here giving him a shoutout and hug of support. Becuase we have no idea what he’s tried tried and tried, how many times he’s gotten up and sighed and felt like he died and ripped up inside… 

יה״ר שימלא כל משאלות נשברי לב ברחמים בקרוב

החותם בדמע
מאן דבעי חיים