Thank you all. I really appreciate the encouragement and the food for thought. There's a lot to think about here. a lot of chizzuk. Will respond tomorrow BEH to some of the questions by HHM and Grant, do some work. I can't thank you all enough.

Cord/Avraham: I BH have a decent sense of self esteem, so even though it took me a long time and a lot of guts and emotional energy to write my post, (and I wasn't in pajamas, I had a lot more learning to do in my office when I was done), I was able to handle it. I can appreciate the value of shock-treatment, and I appreciate your essential point about honesty and secrecy, (although I fear that many other's wouldn't, the way it was presented). Just remember: There's a time and place for a cup of cold water to the face, and I think you sense of timing is off. Cord: Any good quarterback knows: Timing Is Everything!

There was one thing that I feel was very wrong, Cord. You wrote to me in a derisive and belittling way. That doesn't help, ever. Moreover, the feeling you gave over me was that you feel that I am downplaying the extent of my struggles, and that what I am is essentially a fraud, and honesty would be to admit it. You don't know me all, and that's not fair. I don't have porn in my office or anywhere, I have eternal gratitude to Hashem that BH my struggles don't include masturbation, I don't do the things you wrote. In my shiurim I try hard to speak about things that I work on myself, actually. I don;t think I would be able to accomplish anything of value without being real. I try hard and I don't think I'm a fraud. I'm a work in progress who needs to grow, and to get better, and I could use help, but that does not de-legitimize the Avoda that I give my life for every day, and I felt you were insinuating it does. That part of your post really hurt.   

I promise to be completely honest here. That means I won't whitewash or rationalize, and will say exactly what is, to the best of my ability. I will use the anonymity to be able to share, speak openly and be involved in conversations so I can learn and grow from and together with other yiddin. I love the striving and growing here, I want to be a part of it. That's my first step, and for me it's big, and it took energy. That's a kind of honestly that is real, and is facilitated by this forum. Yes, there are downsides to this way, and there are other ways. But this is something real and special, and I think I can grow from connecting to the striving, real, heilige people here.  

Here's an additional thought, maybe a little Chizzuk. 
I've been in far darker places that I am in now. Boruch Hashem, I don't take it for granted. I know many of you are there now, too. i don't feel any sense of superiority over those who have greater struggles than I.

We each have a Mitzva of Kedoshim Tehiyu.
Seforim teach that the plural tense shows is that the Mitzva is given separately to each individual to BECOME Kadosh.
This means -
For who I am now, I am not a Kadosh yet. I am being given the mission to take a step, to become who I am not yet.
Hashem is telling me that I must walk this road. He has a plan for me, a place he wants me to reach. To become a Kadosh, a whole new person thati am not yet, removed from who I have been thus far.
The specific Mitzva tells me that I can do it. And that I must do it, who I am today isn't enough. This is Hashem's specific mission for me. I will get there, I promise.
And He has a separate specific mission for you - your own road to become Kadosh.
Wherever I am, wherever you are, Hashem has a plan for us, we can and must transform into a Kadosh.Wherever we each are now.
And then there will be another higher mission... Going to keep growing, becoming Kadosh, as long as we are here.

We must each walk our own lonely and difficult road.

But it feels less lonely to me today. Less lonely than it's been in a while.
Maybe I can walk this road lonely, but together.

I'll be in touch, Chevra
 

wow. thank you for your post, i appreciated the vort on kedoishim tihiyu, and more importantly thanks for joining the chevra. i feel like we can use such an insightful marbitz toira around here.

p.s.

“Cord. You wrote to me in a derisive and belittling way”

That section of his comment was not addressed to you AT ALL. It might have helped if he would’ve started off his first line writing who he is replying to first.

Skip that section.
Read the Rest.
Take a Rest.
Keep on Trucking!

Ok, so the forum has definitely woken up a bit. I'm definitely happy about that.

Acting slightly political, I'm not here to take sides, but rather to explain my perception of the thinking behind each rationale.

Cordnoy quoted Dov as saying that this site isn't anonymous  - it's secretive. I completely understand his point - BUT - only from my perspective after having been on this site for a few years.

When a person joins this site, at first they lurk, most either continue lurking or disappear. Only a select few summon up the courage to actually post and participate. It's intimidating and scary, but then when everyone welcomes them, they feel the warmth and acceptance, and some actually stay for the long run and put in the hard work. That's why it's important to be welcoming and encouraging. (Thank you Captain and HHM - GYE's angel.)

At the same time, although this site definitely has life changing qualities, is a very healthy starting point and can create very healthy and robust foundations to become clean for the long term, sometimes, if the person isn't open to advancing to the next level and exposing himself to uncomfortable situations (only open to the ones that provide pleasure too lol) then he will continue running on the same rat wheel. He will either eventually leave the site in despair, or tearfully post here and there to make himself feel like he's doing something and fighting the good ol fight - and then promptly open his pants again.

I am in a better place now, than I have been since I was 13. The reason is definitely because of all that I learned on this site, but what brought it home is because I opened up to live people via phone and in particular, one person, in person, regularly. (Which probably wouldn't have happened without this site too.)

Truthfully when I joined, I was in denial or more like unaware about how deep I was invested in lust. If at that point someone would've told me that it's hopeless unless I meet someone and tell them my dark and dirty secrets, I would've freaked out and ran for the hills, feeling that if that's the only way, I'm out.

(About a year or so ago I actually posted something to this effect, that everyone should stop jumping down a new posters throat to start calling people, and scare them away, and rather give him time to acclimate and eventually he may be open to it).

But after being through many highs and lows and being exposed to a whole world of co-strugglers on GYE, B"H my perspective changed to a healthier one. One that allowed me to make strides I would've balked at in the past, and reach out for help in person.

So what is the right way?

Tha answer seems to be timing, and to whom it is directed at. Many need a more gentler approach, and most probably do in the beginning.

At the same time, many can definitely benefit from being called out. It can hurt, but a receptive person can understand the necessity. The intention isn't to hurt the person, but to peel away at the layers of self deception, confusion, pain and ignorance. It is out of care and concern for a fellow struggler who is suffering.

A seasoned veteran like Cordnoy has been around the block. Quite a number of times. He has helped so many people in grizzly situations see the light at the end of the tunnel. His clarity is sharp and clear. He can see through all the layers that takes us months or years to dig through, in a much shorter span of time.

He's definitely here to help, he would probably go out of his way much farther than any of us would to assist someone on the forum. I can say with 100% certainty that his post wasn't meant to chas"vsh belittle or denigrate anyone. It was purely an observation that he thinks (whether we agree or not) will be helpful.

Just the fact that Cordnoy posted a reply to a so far one time poster meant that he felt Chaim is a candidate who can be receptive to some real advice.

Chaim, clearly we see you haven't been scared away. I promise you Cordnoy meant no insult, and although the way he writes can seem sharp and pointed - that's his style and is what makes his posts the kind you want to read twice and internalize. You may not agree on the content or timing, but we can agree on the intention.

Please stick around. You got this.

Especially if you got Cordnoy in your corner.

Thank you. I appreciate your points, Grant.
I'm going to take this one step at a time. And try to figure out what at the right tools to help me through experiencing them...

Grant, Captain and HHM, you asked about triggers, access, and situations. 
Of course it was a device. Oy. what else?

It's filtered, and I don't usually have it on me [on purpose]. But I was searching casually.
The search term was truly innocuous. The re-direct, and "hole" in the filter was not intentional.
I clicked a few times after that (and BH stopped).
The filter caught and blocked most, but not all, of the toxic, intoxicating sewage. But I clicked a few times... even after I knew where i was going. ARgghhhh
I can no longer, WILL NO LONGER live with that, I need to be clean, I don't want to be that way anymore.  [but perhaps for the grace of the fact that i stopped and put it away and decided to post....]

But if I am honest, someone of my intelligence and experience knows that  "searching casually" is not innocuous. [I generally try, based on experience, not to search without a specific goal and need.]  I think that deep down, I was probably going looking for an "unintended casualty". I have some thoughts about triggers that were there that I will probably post about, as I formulate my thoughts better.

But my first thought about taking a positive step [in the direction of עזיבת החטא] was actually what you wrote, Grant, in your earlier post, about being constantly vigilant and not letting my guard down, being alert for the constant battle. I try to learn from a Sefer on Shmiras Einayim every day, but lately I have just been looking briefly and quickly, instead of "getting into it". I havent been focusing on this weakness and working on myself in this area.  complacency is a terrible trap. I have been Zocheh to change for the better in the past, I need to continue to do so.  

People in recovery might talk about taking the first step. I don't think I am an addict, but I KNOW that I am infected with a Yetzer and without help from Hakadosh Boruch Hu I won't be able to withstand any Nisyonos.
And the Gemora says that we struggle with the Yetzer Hora every day and : אלמלא הקב״ה עוזרו לא יוכל לו
I think the language indicates that He will HELP me - meaning that I need to be fighting and only then will He give me the Bracha of victory.
Thats where I am starting tonight.
I will also dig deeper, but first lines of defense first [and ill try to fix the filter, too].

I'd appreciate (gentle) suggestions, please

 

chaimoigen wrote on 17 May 2023 03:46:

Thank you for the direct and peaceful post. I am new here and normally feel strange sharing since we have seasoned members handling things. I still feel that way, but after people suggested others get more involved and out of the shadows, I feel like "why not"? I have no maarachos on how to stop, I am still breaking in myself- we know there is inspiration, motivation, partners, mentors, groups, books and all the rest. For me, the sugyos of yosef etc. help with derhoibenkeit and make me remember I'm a yid, which is valuable in itself (recently wrote a nice shtikel about it- is there somewhere I might post it?).
But I think most of all, what I need, and perhaps others as well (it feels too strange to suggest directly to a mentch what he needs) is to change my orientation to internet connected tech. For me, I almost have muscle memory to search for porn on my phone because I have used it so much for that. But not my computer, wife's phone or iPad etc., because I just haven't used them for that (not so much anyway). Meaning, lots of times it is just the availability+boredom+"this is what I am used to doing" that leads me to it. I recently took off my Chrome app and youtube, and even though I can still access everything through other means, even on the phone itself, it has become so much easier. I am slightly lazy to do it in a way I am not used to, it feels funny going on a different browser that I don't normally use. B'kitzur, changing the orientation to the device itself and how I use it, seems to be very important to my help. Especially since I tend to have issues with compulsiveness in other things too. Changing things a bit makes a difference.
From what you wrote, it sounds like you have not fallen as much as me (I mean that respectfully, not making light), so I hope you do not feel offended by what I wrote.
L'maase, the details don't make much difference.  Meaning, even if you only looked a little bit, and it didn't lead to masturbation, and you came to post here, and you went back to learning, if it bothers you so much, good for you for helping yourself. 
I don't why I feel the need to say this (actually it is probably because I want support), but I do not know if my gisha is right, and I am not even sure I have makom to say anything because an addicted mind can't think straight, but here we are.
Now I can slink back to my corner.

יהוסף Please don't slink back into a corner!

(Can you please post your vort in The Torah & Chizuk Approach forum?)

Thank you יהוסף!
I think your point is a very helpful one, though my personal application will be a drop different.
We're all in the same Milchama together, each has our own battles, whatever is different about us, we probably have more in common.  
Yasher Koach.
Please don't slink! - you just gave a Yid a big boost to his day!

It's interesting you mentioned Yosef Hatzadik.
By Shacharis today, when I was saying מה בצע בדמי I realized that those words Mah Betza are the same words that Yehuda used when he was convincing the Shevatim not to kill Yosef when he was in the Bor. 
I started thinking about Yosef - 
He was betrayed, stripped naked, thrown into a deep filthy pit, and surrounded by Nechasim and Akravim...
And yet there was a Meilitz Yosher saying "Mah Betza!!!!" what value can there be to him becoming lost forever!?
And so  Dovid Hamelech gives us those magnificient words to call out with to Hakadosh Boruch Hu -
I was calling - OY Rebono Shel Oilam
"Mah Betza Bidami !!! Please Tateh ! Don't leave  me in the filthy pit! Please don't let me succumb to the Nechashim and Akravim!  What value will there be in Your sending my Neshoma down here if I and lost in Be'er Shachas!?! Please, please pull me and all the other Yehoseifs out! You can do it."
למען יזמרך כבוד ולא ידום...

י

ה

ו

ס

ף

chaimoigen wrote on 17 May 2023 13:02:

That's moiredig! Hard to believe I gave a yid a big boost, it's an honor--- torah that comes from a mentch in a matzav, living through the vort, is aino domeh!

All, I am sorry.

Godspeed

chaimoigen wrote on 17 May 2023 13:02:

Powerful vort!
Curious is this Reb Chaim's or Reb Yehosef's?

It was my thought during Shacharis today.
......And throughout the whole day today....BH

Grant, thank you for that masterpiece of a post. And besides for all that you wrote about Cords being true, I want to point out, it takes such strength to write the last post he did in this thread. That one blew me away. I apologize too. I don't think anybody doubted his intention or his expertise. And we are all indebted to him for all he does here, the vast, vast majority of which will remain unknown
Reb Chaim, how's it going? Reached out to shmooze with Cords yet?

I really appreciated what Cord wrote, and the greater clarification and understanding through reading what the others [esp Grant] have written. There's a lot of thoughtfulness here. It's special.

I think that all of the years of struggling with myself, examining thoughts and feeling, rethinking and questioning myself and examining life deeply - this has all contributed to making my internal life more developed than maybe it would be otherwise. Big silver lining! There's a lot going on inside of me, always. Sometimes its a crazy zoo, but there's no lack of content.

I feel that in a lot of you too. It's part of makes me very glad that I'm here now, and what makes me realize that I have a lot to learn from people here. 

Quick thought- Mark Twain supposedly said "quitting smoking is easy! I've done it hundreds of times..."
I can make a short-term decision about change based on my Sechel knowing what's right.
That's not a change in the essential makeup of who I am.
Who I am is deeply rooted in what my Ratzon is. How do I change what I want? Wanting to not want doesn't translate.

I successfully stopped smoking after many years. After trying to stop for a while. [I wasn't a truly big smoker ever, admittedly, but it was enough that I couldn't really stop.] It happened one day when I realized that I had a deep desire to Be A NON-Smoker. I had a strong Ratzon for the lifestyle, the affect, the positive essence of being free from smoking. I acted on it and its many years BH

I am afraid that I have not yet found, in a deep part f me, a full Ratzon to be a person who is fully clean. Thats a thought that brings me sadness and shame.
But maybe now the Ratzon that brought me to take these steps is the ray of pure light I have been awaiting. I hope so. I Daven that it will be so. Ken Yehi Ratzon.

I once heard a wonderful shiur from Rabbi Yom Tov Glaser on the topic of trying - he said that trying is a fallacy: Go try to fall asleep.

He said more or less the point you are making - that you need to "be" rather than "doing." On this forum, I am being receptive, open, honest, and insightful. What am I doing? I'm sitting on my bed and typing.

I don't like "doing" washing dishes, I enjoy "being" a good husband.

America is really about how much you are doing. (How much money are you making? How busy are you?)

As Jews, we are about being. All of our mitzvos are all just ways of being an Eved Hashem. The actions you are doing don't matter as much.

Applying this is hard. We have to focus on what and who we want to be.

Lots of times when we are doing something that doesn't fell right for us, we can asks ourselves, "Am I being, or is this doing?"

(Rabbi Glaser put it really well, I don't think I'm giving it over properly.)