YeshivaGuy wrote on 24 May 2022 06:09:


Here's an interesting collection of opinions on the topic of "Shidduch Pictures"

Rav Avrohom Meisels in his “Der Oitzer fun Nissuin” cites a fascinating precedent regarding the Chebiner Rav, Rav Dov Berish Veidenfeld zt”l. A shadchan approached him with a shidduch for his daughter with a young man from a distant town, but mentioned that the other side wanted a picture of the Chebiner Rav’s daughter. The Chebiner Rav responded in writing to the shadchan with a message to the other side, “Lo y’aseh kain bimkomeinu, lasais haTzurah lifnei haBechira.. – This shall not be done in our place, to give the Tzurah [the appearance of the girl – i.e. a photograph = pronounced BTW in the Chasidish havarah as Tzirah] before the Bechira – (Chassidish pronounciation for Bachura) the young lady.” The Chebiner devised a clever play on words using Tzurah – photograph, instead of Tze’irah – younger one referencing Lavan’s response to Yaakov Avinu in Bereishis 29:26, however, he did respond with a very clear message: This is clearly not something that Jewish people should be doing and is very far from the Torah way of life.

THE PELEH YOETZ writes: Shlomo HaMelech tells us in Mishlei (31:30), “sheker hachein v’hevel hayofi – Charm is a lie and beauty is vain, rather the G-d-fearing woman is to be praised..” The Peleh Yoetz explains that Shlomo HaMelech is not saying that we should ignore all beauty – rather that the main criterion for marriage should be whether the woman has fear of Heaven. It is clear that a categorical demand to see a picture – perforce reveals that the person’s inner yardstick emphasizes shallow appearances over all else. The attractiveness of the young lady can be ascertained by asking around rather than by demanding to see a picture.


Rav Yaakov Galinsky zt”l once asked a question regarding Tu b’Av. Tu B’Av is when the daughters of Yerushalayim all gathered in borrowed white clothing to find shidduchim and recited the pasuk of “sheker haChein” to the gathering men. Rav Galinsky zatzal asked, “How was it that this event was so successful in finding shidduchim for so many people? Shidduchim, in general, takes such a long time!”

Rav Galinsky answered that the purpose of each girl wearing borrowed white clothing was to demonstrate that beauty in charm is all vanity and deceit and unimportant – rather, the true essence of happiness in marriage is fear of Heaven. That is why they refused to adorn themselves in fancy clothing and attire. When people are self-absorbed in themselves, as in the overemphasis on looks and appearances, then shidduchim are slower and more difficult. However, explained Rav Galisnky zt”l, when people do have the proper values and emphasis, shidduchim happen almost instantaneously, like in the Tu B’Av of old.

Rav Galinsky’s point can possibly be seen in a growing counter-trend. More and more people are saying, “No” to a young man whose mother is so insistent on a picture. “It’s not that I minded sending a picture,” remarked one father of a girl, “but why should my daughter be subjected to such a shallow or over-bearing mother-in-law?”

POSKIM WHO FORBID GAZING

Poskim in the Chassidish world are more adamant as to the prohibition involved in a man looking at a picture of a woman. Rav Yisroel Harpenes of Hisachdus HaRabbonim, in his sefer Yisroel Kedoshim (p. 125) writes that even when the woman is dressed in a completely modest fashion, the idea of a man gazing at a picture is entirely against halacha. While there is no prohibition in only a woman looking at such a picture, we would be deceiving ourselves if we did not agree that it is likely that the picture would get into the hands of the young man.

Notwithstanding the stringent view, the issue is subject to much halachic debate. Certainly, Jewish law, Halacha, singles out “ogling” as an out and out prohibition. Rabbeinu Yonah (Shaarei Teshuva 1:6 and 8) defines it as a full blown biblical prohibition. His position as explained by the Bais Shmuel (Even HoEzer 21:2) is that it violates the verse, “Do not go after your hearts and eyes.”

Maimonides also forbids it, but whether it is a biblical or Rabbinic prohibition is subject to debate. The Bais Shmuel and the Pnei Yehoshua (Even HoEzer Vol. II #44) both understand that the Rambam rules that it is forbidden only by Rabbinic decree. Rav Moshe Feinstein zt”l (Igros Moshe EH Vol. IV #60) rules that the Rambam’s view is that it is forbidden by Biblical decree just like the Rabbeinu Yonah position.

THE SOURCE is in The Talmud (Avodah Zarah 20a and b) is one of the primary sources that discusses the prohibition. Since the close of the Talmud, halachic decisors have grappled as to the exact parameters of “Ogling.”

The exact term that the Talmud employs in its discussion is “Histaklus.” The question is do we define” histaklus” as a] looking, b] staring, or c] ogling? Also, is there a debate about the term in the actual halachic sources?

The Sefer Chasidim (#99) discusses the parameters of “Histaklus” and says that Histaklus is more than just looking. It is looking intentionally for a long time and contemplating who she looks like or is equal to in appearance. Rav Chaim Palagi in Re’eh Chaim (p. 13c) defines it in this manner as well.

On the other hand, regarding other issues, the SMA (Choshen Mishpat 154:14) writes that the term “Histaklus” can, in fact, mean mere looking. The Chida, and a few other Poskim a well, rule in accordance with this view.

The aforementioned passage in the Talmud states that it is forbidden to “stare” at an attractive woman, even if she is single. If she is a married woman, it is forbidden to stare at her even if she is ugly. The Talmud then asks how it could be that Rabbi Shimon Ben Gamliel, while once entering the Temple mount, recited a verse in Tehillim when he saw an attractive woman. The Talmud answers that it must have been that he ran into her while turning a corner and thus did not notice that he was about to meet up with her.

It is noted that the Talmud’s response is that Rabbi Shimon Ben Gamliel met her after turning a corner. The Talmud did not answer that Rabbi Shimon Ben Gamliel merely did not have intent to derive pleasure from seeing her, or that he was just “looking” but not “staring.” The implication is that there may indeed exist some sort of prohibition of “looking” even if one is not deriving pleasure.

One may also ask if the same prohibition would apply in a photograph as in live. The Poskim do deal with viewing it through a mirror or other medium. Rav Palaji (in Responsa Shma Avrohom #46 cited by Rav Ovadiah Yoseph in Yechave Daas 4:7) rules that it does. Rav Yoseph Chaim Zonnenfeld is cited as someone who is more lenient and differentiates between a picture and a live person if there is no chance that it could bring one to improper thoughts.

THE MORE LENIENT VIEW: The Shulchan Aruch (EH 65:1) however, writes that it is forbidden to look at women who are laundering. This prohibition is found in tractate Bava Basra 57b. The reason is that while they are laundering, parts of the body that are normally covered are sometimes exposed. The Shulchan Aruch does not, herein, state a categorical prohibition against looking at women.

This would seem to contradict the simple implication of the paragraph in Avodah Zarah 20b. It seems from this passage in Shulchan Aruch that there is no issue of looking at women – as long as they are not in a state of compromised dress.

How then would Rabbi Karo, the author of the Shulchan Aruch, explain our Gemorah? It must be that the Talmud felt that Rabbi Shimon Ben Gamliel’s recitation of the verse in Tehillim implied that it was a “deeper looking” than mere regular looking. The Gemorah could not answer that he was not benefitting from seeing her, because he saw fit to recite the laudatory verse from Tehillim, “Mah Rabu Maasecha,Hashem – How wondrous are your works.” [See Igros Moshe OC I #40].


There seem to be two reasons cited as to why the prohibition of Histaklus exists. One is that it may lead to illicit and improper thoughts. This reason is actually stated in the Mishna Torah of Maimonides. Another reason found in the Poskim is that the mere deriving of pleasure in viewing someone who is not one’s wife is wrong.

Many of the Chassidisha Poskim rule that when young men look at a picture to see whether the young lady is attractive, it is more likely that the look will be deeper than the regular looking that would occur during a live date.




What do contemporary Poskim say about this practice of asking for pictures? Rav Dovid Feinstein shlita, was not happy when he heard of this growing practice and responded, “Why are we making things more difficult? There is a certain chein that young ladies have that often does not come across in a photograph, and can only be seen in person. We are making the shidduch crisis worse with these new requirements.” He did not forbid it from a halachic perspective, but he was clearly very much against it.

Rav Moshe Heinemann, Shlita of Baltimore, when consulted by this author on the question, responded, “I do not think that it is within the framework of tznius for a girl to give a picture out where others can possibly see it. This is not with the ruach of Torah.” Rav Shmuel Fuerst, a Dayan in Chicago stated, “This wasn’t the mehalech for doros, and I think it is lacking in tznius. I don’t think it is a proper hanhagah and, besides, a picture can be very deceiving.”

YeshivaGuy wrote on 24 May 2022 06:09:

In my opinion, if this situation happens again, tell your friend that you don't send pictures because you don't want to see pictures of girls.

in my opinion boys should not be asking for a picture of the girls. let him meet her and then decide if she is well rounded for him. in both hashkafah and beauty.
Me personally I did not ask for any pictures. 
My mother would not even give it to me even if I asked.

Take the girl for who she is and not let looks sway you.

Off topic BWE

Thank you DavidT for sharing so much info on the inappropriateness/potential issurim involved in sending shidduch pictures. I would just like to add - Our girls are not hefker, and in this day and age where everything virtual goes viral, it is most inappropriate to allow for a bas Yisroel's picture to potentially be distributed and become "public".

As far as advice for YG - Any guy here who is trying to avoid unnecessary stimulation should definitely avoid these situations. For shidduchim or any other purpose, it's not wise to be a middleman of female pictures. Even if you are the shadchan, you don't need to be looking at these pictures.

Managed thus far to be clean for 4 days. 
I blocked the App Store with gentech but unlocked now, saw some some pics of girls… really wanna be nichshal all the way rn.

Gosh it’s hard, the truth is I’m lonely and I want love, I spoke with my friend about it in Yeshiva last night instead of being nichshal.

Downloaded a hookup app for a sec, started swiping but realized this won’t make me happy, it’s not even what I’m looking for…

YG loneliness is very difficult.  One can distract themselves from loneliness but it’s not a feeling that can be replaced by something else.  

What you did last night was very smart.  You identified the feelings that were motivating you.  You spent time talking about it to a friend.  It became clear to you that the unproductive web surfing would not fulfill your real desire.  

however, that loneliness is what is keeping you vulnerable. The y”h captures that feeling and easily convinces you that following your urges will make the pain of loneliness go away. (True - It may even mask the pain momentarily but in the end it will actually make you even lonelier)

if you can find a way to channel that loneliness into something productive it may help you to be less vulnerable.   There are two things I back think of, although the ideas you come up with yourself will be more powerful. 

one idea is that loneliness is from a desire to connect.  The ultimate eternal connection is with hashem. Use those feelings to inspire you to seek at meaningful connections to hashem and the loneliness will become a powerful productive tool. 

the other idea is that you ultimately want love on this world.  The more you can push yourself to be honest and true to the essence of what type of person you want to be - the stronger a connection you will be able to forge with a future spouse.  Use this motivation to become the best version of you that you can become. This will also be a productive use of the feelings of loneliness.  

don’t let the y”h hijack your feelings for his use.  They are your feelings. Catch them before he gets to them and use them in the best way possible for you to become great.

wishing you continued success

vehkam 

I’ll say something, I’ve hinted here and there, I’ll mention it but no stupid, fluffy, or super frumy comments please.
Comments are appreciated, please be sensitive though.

So abuse, I was young and ya. Very angry and filled with anxiety as today I was wearing a bathrobe and a guy said I looked like a guy who ya.
Its largely what I’m in therapy for.

So ya, dizzy, light headed, drowning in anger and anxiety. I would like to see bad vids and masterbate as a release. I’m so so done.
Im 8 days clean though, spoke to a friend goin on a drive, will see wat happens.

Was nichshal. Have therapy in the morning.

Sounds like the guy who commented on your bathrobe matzav should be spending some time on GYE....

Hi YG.  I don't really have anything to say, just that I'm sorry for the pain you have had to endure.  I'm davaning for you. 

Went to therapy. Was nichshal again.
Entering the gym now to work out.
Gonna try calming down.

YeshivaGuy wrote on 07 Jun 2022 23:04:

No point beating yourself up about something that Gd would let pass (no I don’t have inside info). 

When going through good therapy, it’s likely expected for things to get tough before it gets MUCH better. It’s possible that “falling” is a piece of the process which therefore is not of much benefit to focus on - if it happens it happens, brush yourself off and keep movin’ on.
Ask your Therapist and your Rebbe.

KEEP ON TRUCKING!!

I got myself a problem 

A problem shared is a problem halved…

Please excuse the length of this post. 
This is where things stand:

As you all know, this year has been hell and my commitment to/interest in a relationship with GD has been volatile.

Lately I’ve sought to restore ties with GD, the Torah, and Klall Yisrael (each with their own respective complications). 
It has been relatively successful, I expected to do more but that’s not for now.

In less than 2 weeks I’ll be head staff at a camp. 
Here are some factors that I gotta figure out how to navigate.

There’s secretaries who are my age, modern, and attractive. I’ve been having a hard time already and that’s just with being on a group chat with them coordinating camp stuff.

Part of me is excited as I can be flirty etc especially with the little bit of self confidence I’ve gotten having been working out.

The Camp is both half’s, and since it’s a day camp, the issue arises of being at home for so long.
To alleviate that issue, I have the ability to stay by family during the week who lives closer to the camp thereby avoiding the psychological and emotional turmoil that being home entails.

This however, means I’ll be on my own.
On my own has pros and cons.

One con is that I’d be 100% more likely to, after a few weeks of flirting with a girl, go on a hike or something together if I’m not living at home than if I was.

A pro is that I’d be in an area with batei medrashos where I can have a seder daily- something I would like to do.

Honestly, I would like for this summer to be a stepping stone for me in my growth.
I’d like to utilize my kochos in Camp, gain more self esteem, and developed more of a sense of Self.
I’d like to wake up and daven, learn, go to Camp, work out- to be a functioning member of society.

And then I’d like to translate that into a successful Elul and beyond. (I still don’t know why I want that, I still don’t know who or what I actually want to be. For some reason I feel that’s what I want, idk why.)

But this piece is so very big. 
And besides the secretaries, there’s a girls camp as well. It’s not Coed. But as head staff I’ll be interacting with girls for scheduling etc.
And even if nothing happens, I’m afraid I’ll be so preoccupied with all my fantasies that I will miss this golden opportunity before my eyes.
And in truth, even if I would somehow develop “something” with someone. It would cause me so much emotional pain as I can’t handle it now due to trauma.
This I’ve discussed often in therapy, I crave love, emotion, affection, but I can’t handle it (for reasons beyond the scope of this forum).
That’s partially why I’m not yet dating, and that’s what makes this all so difficult.

I don’t know what to do. 
I am engulfed in pain.
The last 3 days I’ve had legit nonstop anxiety, though I’ve been coming across pretty normal (at least in person, maybe not here

I feel overtaken, overrun, by a force far greater than I.
This force tells me I’ll be flirty. It tells me to keep using this smartphone despite the filter not working.
This force tells me I don’t care about holiness.

But this force can not turn me blind.
Going to a Simcha of a friend, a true Ben Aliya, who’s gone through hell. Real pain real unadulterated tzaar.
And to see him having a Simcha b’tznius, within the proper context. There’s just nothing more beautiful than that. 

But alas, I don’t know what it is a want. 
I am broken, I am scared. I’m putting up a face of strength, of iron grit. But inside, I’m crying in pain like a baby who’s mother dropped on the ground.

I don’t know who I am, what I am, what I want to be and why. You can say I’m “thinking too much,” but such a response, in my opinion, is due to not understanding the true affects of trauma.
Indeed, this is apart of the journey, one I have not chosen, one that I despise, but nonetheless must engage in.

What does the future have in store for me?
Where will I direct my life? How will I utilize the abilities, gifts, kochos, and opportunities I’ve been bestowed with? And will I even use them at all?

I wrote an important Poem Erev Shavuos this year depicting my struggle of kabolas hatorah from a GD that has caused me so much pain.
I end it with this tefila which I find apropos to my current predicament:

Conqure Me with waves of new devotion
Teach Me how to breath in ocean’s low’s 
Let this mark the end of our attrition
And lead me on the path that my heart knows