Markz wrote on 22 Aug 2022 04:24:

Thats actually something 12 step programs are strongly based on the dact that "The addiction is not the problem its the solution"... 

Shmuel, you’re correct in that.

However the 12 steps doesn’t deal with the core problem head on  as our friend Shnitzel was saying “the only way they will be successful is by identifying the cause. It isnt what you are doing it is why you are doing it.”

Even Step 4 “Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves” simply refers to an inventory of our lifestyle and tendencies etc.
It does NOT mean (at least literally) a psychological inventory, nor do they give any guidance to resolve what made you have the need to use porn as a coping mechanism… 

That’s my understanding, however I haven’t tried the steps so don’t take my word to the bank on this. 

YeshivaGuy wrote on 22 Aug 2022 06:01:

The initial poster, although I disagreed with him, was referrin' only to someone who struggles with porn and masturbation; Yosef was not a struggler and should not be included in this conversation. Eishes Potifar came on to Yosef; that was his nisayon.

cordnoy wrote on 22 Aug 2022 15:50:

I agree they aren’t the exact same case.
Obviously there wasn’t internet.

However I don’t see much of a difference between Eishes Potifar trying to seduce you and the pornstars on one’s cellphone in your pocket beckoning for your attention.

cordnoy wrote on 22 Aug 2022 02:21:

As are most absolutes. However I agree with the initial poster, that this is the case for most heavy Porn watchers among us. And it isnt maybe said enough, relative to streaks, tafshics, filters, books, among other great ideas. 

Seems to me that there's an inherent contradiction goin' on; GYE brass and many posters here say that the porn-watchin' and the masturbation-jerkin' are rampant in today's society - 200,000 orthodox Jews at any given time are shpritzin' all over the place; 1 outta every 3 litvishe bochurim or 2 of every 5 are sextin' with chatty girls; out of 8 chabatzkers or general beaver hats - 5 outta 8 are gettin' massages, and then we say that every one of them is unhealthy and escapin' from some trauma!? Is the entire world crazy? Maybe we're all runnin' and chasin' our tail, for we need to put distance away from our other personality? And yes, wife's are always right as well! Of course, because the menfolk are absolutely nuts!

Among us I meant on GYE, guys that are her for a longer time, working hard, and keep on doing it again and again, after saying Ashrei backwards and making a tumblesuace in the mik backwards.. (What a scene...)

cordnoy wrote on 22 Aug 2022 19:20:

Would you agree that a large percent of the guys on here are using Porn and Masturbation as a coping method of some sort?
It seems that MANY of the forums describe how stressful the day was leading up to a fall...

On a separate but related note, how do you feel about porn being considered a drug similar to alcohol and other common ingestible drugs? 

Sapy wrote on 22 Aug 2022 18:28:

And I was about to say that ALL absolutes are wrong ;-)

Shmuel wrote on 22 Aug 2022 22:06:

People smoke, play games on their phone, peruse Matzav and drink Gatorade, all as means of copin' somewhat; does that make them all unhealthy?

Personally I would say my general OBSSESIVE draw to porn and masturbation is because of underlying issues.

However, even when I'm in a good place internally, I still am drawn to porn and masturbation (though not as much) simply because porn is nice. I like it. I stay away from it because it causes me to go nutso, but my draw to it i not ALWAYS to escape some deeper void.

That is the danger with saying absolute. Not every time I desire porn, do I have to doscover my inner void or issue. Sometimes it's just Taava. 

I would agree though, that MANY of us here that OBSESS over porn in very unhealthy ways, should dig deep and see whats going on.

Although many of us act out/acted out due to underlying issues, there are definitely people that simply struggle and fall with good old fashioned lust. In fact, most of us who belong to the "underlying issues" group, will probably agree that there were times that we also acted out solely due to ta'avah. 

Fascinating discussion.

My tuppence is that for me, porn/masturbation etc is primarily a coping mechanism for emotional distress.

But that doesn't mean that I am emotional distressed on a permanent basis.

I do have underlying issues which make me prone to that distress under certain circumstances.

But porn/masturbation can also be out of simple lust.
One can be happy, and still be drawn to lust.


There is actually a non-Jewish guy somewhere online who has made point of saying how different sex addiction is from alcohol, drug and gambling addiction.
He says that the sex drive is a normal human drive such as the drive for food and drink.
The other addictions are somehow learned.
So sex addiction must be regarded differently.

He is partially correct...he says that a way to curing people is to be in a healthy monogomous relationship.
This is a help for some people.

But as this forum shows, it is not the cure.
Because there are married people on this forum too.

We do have an inner drive to look at attractive women...it is a biological impetus to selecting a woman we believe will be a suitable mother to our children.
The attractiveness is supposed to represent health.

But as we know, outward appearances can be very deceptive.
As Jews, we are encouraged to look beyond the outer, to inspect the character and personality traits of the woman.

So if you are happy, looking at porn is like a virtual reality.
It fools you into thinking you are with that attractive woman in person.
When instead you are alone with your phone or computer.

It wastes time that could be spent being productive or simply relaxing.
It's fools gold.

According to Peer Briken, a world expert on the topic, compulsive sexual behavior can be caused by many things, and there isn't a single cause that can be said to apply to everyone across the board.

That said, anyone that feels that they often engage in problematic sexual behaviors when experiencing uncomfortable feelings (e.g. worry, sadness, boredom, frustration, guilt, or shame), would need to deal with those underlying issues to achieve lasting freedom. It might be enough to just learn healthy coping strategies like the ones described in the F2F Cabin Pressure lesson, or they might need to do deeper work with a therapist. Similarly, if someone suffered in the past from abuse, or has a psychiatric issue - those issues are likely related and need to be worked out with a professional. 

However, in other cases, struggles with P&M comes from a mix of hormones, easy access to porn, impulse control issues, and מים גנובים יומתקו - the allure of forbidden fruit. Negative attitudes towards sexuality/pornography ironically make the struggle more difficult, as some guys mentioned here. (My point is not that we should change our attitude, at least not to porn, but it's just a statement of fact.) Also, when P&M is used repeatedly, it can become a habit that is resistant to change.

MenachemGYE wrote on 25 Aug 2022 13:25:

I feel that The Battle of the Generation is very good for this.