inastruggle wrote on 05 May 2016 23:56:

I  just nominated this post for post of the year. It's so well put, totally hits the nail on the head.

I need to find and internalize that balance, to know that what I'm doing/feeling is normal, but that it's still not okay because Hashem said so. That understanding I think will bring me success, peace of mind and maybe even real, pure joy.

You guys are awesome.

Actually I love you guys - never forget that

As is well known, my blunt / sharp posts due to my mild aspergian traits have caused others to drop my karma, yet I'll continue trucking because my end goal is your success

I do not want to gate crash on this party, but I am misunderstanding something here

Birshusi wrote on 05 May 2016 22:21:


From my unprofessional understanding addiction is when the outlet is out of control
Perhaps you are not addicted (No unprofessional guy here can tell you).
However "if you can't have it, your mind is going to try to find the next "best" thing".
Is that ok for you? Is that 'not a problem' similar to the first point I raised in my last post here?

I can argue with your mom - you can't

inastruggle wrote on 05 May 2016 23:56:


I beg (on my knees) to disagree

So...
Karma down, and I await to hear your kind respond...

My knees are hurting...

Nu!!!

I have what to say. But I'm not going to. If you really want to know then pm me.

markz wrote on 06 May 2016 01:02:


First of all don't worry about your karma. I don't remember ever lowering anyone's karma. I hate the whole karma business to begin with but that's for a different time. This is way more important.
markz wrote on 06 May 2016 01:02:


1) Aside from me not necessarily agreeing with you on what addiction is, where do you see any outlet being out of control? Of course he's love starved, he's a frum bachur. There's a huge difference between affection from a girl and affection from anyone else. As a frum bachur he doesn't get affection from any girl, hence he's love starved. Just like every other frum bachur.
If he means that this love starvation defines him then I might agree with you, but he didn't write that.

2) No one needs to tell you that you aren't addicted. I've never gone to a professional to make sure that I don't have a multiple personality disorder or OCD. You need reason to believe you have it, then you go to find out. Drinking alcohol everyonce in a while isn't reason to go to a professional to find out if you're an alcoholic. If you or someone else who knows you well suspects you're an addict then go find out. Or go for the heck of it.

3)Just because he's probably not an addict doesn't mean it's not a problem. That's why he's here.
markz wrote on 06 May 2016 01:02:


If you're on your knees then try surrendering, two birds with one stone and all that. Do you have a prototype of the surrendering carpet yet?


I should clarify that I don't mean excessively lusting and fantasizing. Also I do see how it would be sick in the way that having your animal self controlling you is sick. But that's really a more torahdig kind of sick than a gross kind of sick.

Also objectifying women is a bit sick. I don't think that lusting after them in necessarily objectifying them though.

Is this last line an assumption or fact?


I'm begging on my knees, to differ about this too

Ok... Let's do this 

How about we all chill... 
Even if my knees are OUCH

Lets try you and I to learn all the pages in the Sugya of Objectification in whatever niggun you like. Check it out here
There will be a farher...

Let me know if you discover any chidushim there (jokes don't count)
 

inastruggle wrote on 05 May 2016 23:56:

Sorry, this is written in an absolute manner, so I can't keep quiet.

1. If one fantasizes and lusts after women/men, it can be sick; it depends on the level and degree. And that's important.

2. We need to control it because the Torah says so. True. We also need to control it, or it will control us and ruin our lives.

3. I don't think you need a mental health professional to label an addict, but it should not be taken lightly either. Answering twenty questions can help, but there is much more as well.

4. There is definitely great resources here.

Everyone should keep on sailin'.

B'hatzlachah

Birshusi (can I say Birshuscha?),

If I may humbly suggest, instead of questioning whether you are an addict, perhaps just ask yourself whether you have a "problem" with lust, i.e. do you have a hard time controlling it or does it sometimes control you. Do you (repeatedly) engage in thought patterns and/or behaviors that are unhealthy/destructive, although you know you don't want to? Assuming (based on your posts) that the answer is yes, the next question is what to do about it. Maybe this should be discussed with a Rebbi or mentor who actually knows you, and has the experience to be able to advise you. Is that an option for you?

(Off on a tangent for a minute - IMHO, that is an opportunity bochurim have that most married guys don't have access to. (Maybe Lubavitch with their mashpia system, I don't know a lot about that). As a bochur I had a smart, Torahdige mashgiach who was willing and able to give me time to discuss any issue that was bothering me and he taught me more than anyone else in the world about life.
I have  friend with a doctorate in psychology who has been working in chinuch for a few years. He is extremely smart, insightful, has common sense and experience. Yet I have seen him be mevatel his daas completely to the Menahel he works for, who I doubt has ever been to college, but has the experience and qualifications that more than make up for it.)

So, back to you, is that an option for you?

eslaasos wrote on 06 May 2016 04:11:

Whoever knows why he's called birshusi, raise your hand or say Aye.
(Birshusi, don't give it away)

I wish I could have been around tonight to be part of the conversation while it was happening. Tomorrow I'll digest and respond to everything iy"h.

markz wrote on 06 May 2016 03:23:


1)Obviously I didn't interview every bachur. Maybe there are some who don't feel that way.
2)How is saying you'd like to have sex with a girl saying she's a sex object? You can respect her intelligence and humanity and still like to have sex, it isn't necessarily a contradiction.

The main thing is that you seem to agree to everything in my post but two lines.
cordnoy wrote on 06 May 2016 03:53:


1. Please see my above post where I clarified what I wrote
2. Addicts need to control it because otherwise it'll control them and ruin their lives. Normal people are fine.
3. I agree that there are extreme cases that don't need a professional. If a guy is homeless and divorced because of alcohol then he's an alcoholic. If he get's into fights with his wife because of drinking he should see a professional. Who do you think should decide if someone is an addict?
You can seriously hurt someone by deciding he's an addict (that includes hurting yourself). Please explain why someone shouldn't spend $200 to get evaluated by a mental health professional who spent years in school and internships, before giving himself a diagnosis that will change his life.

If normal people don't control it, there is a good chance they will become addicts.

Debatable. The definition of a normal person in this case is someone who doesn't have the urge to use it excessively. I'm not an alcoholic, I don't even like alcohol. I need to control myself when I drink a l'chaim on shabbos, I have no urge for the second half of the shotglass.

What do you say to point three?

inastruggle wrote on 20 Aug 1974 17:24:

 Ina, i'm gonna have to go with Mark on this one. We can't approch marrage like that. The ideal (non-objectify love based) relationship between a husband and wife is filled with respect, love, and caring (granted, that these are not always in ample supply), having relations are then used to solidify that bond and commitment to each other that is already there. Having s with a girl without that setting is simply to satisfy our own sx drive. By using her for that, i would say that yes, we are treating her as a object.

Personally, it makes no difference to me if a professional would label me an addict or not. Currently, I do consider myself an addict. The reasons are two fold.
#1 is What I do, (Do I only have improper thoughts, or do I act on them as well)
 And #2 is How often I do I act on them.
 What I do is act out, mzl, search images etc. - not "normal" things. How often is very often. I've been on the chart for about a year now and have very little to show for it. I've went to great lengths and expense to get my" fix", so I consider myself an addict.
 By realizing this about myself, I learn that no matter how sober I feel right now, and no matter that I have been clean for a week, I know that I can't trust myself didley squat. I'm an addict who will go back for more at (almost) every chance I have, so I have learnt how to avoid many triggering situations.
This helps me.
I'm not depressed that I'm an addict, I can learn and do mitzvos and Hashem loves me like anybody else, but I need to know my weaknesses so that I can deal with them properly.

And if a mental health professional were to evaluate me and tell me that I'm not an addict, will that change anything? I will still be the guy who runs to p*** etc.

This is how it helps me. To each their own.