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Ok, I'm gonna try again.

Testin'.

Although this time all the posts are not as clear to me, I'll write my thoughts out in general.

For the record, I hate the chapter called we agnostics.


​For the record, I think that the authors really wanted you to believe in God.


​For the record, I even think that they picked on alcoholics, for they are easy prey.

That being said, it is a highly effective program, and one I use on a daily basis.

If anyone's feathers were ruffled from the above, so be it....that's what it seems to me.

Next, regarding what does God do and what do we do? Here is my take: skep writes that this is a world of action, and that is true, but step 1-3, which is the full acceptance that we addicts are not in control and that we cannot (on any practical level) vanquish the dragon, that is something which is not simple to do. That is passive action, and it is tough. Many give it lip service and say that yes our lives are unmanageable and God is the only one who can restore us to sanity, but they don't really believe it. Take my dear friend, who has risen to high levels, far superior to where he was some years ago, but yet, he us is not satisfied. There are still ציצין המעכבין lurking in his neighborhood, and this bothers him immensely. What does he do? He racks his brains in his attempt to figure out what is wrong and what can he do. How can he remedy the situation? Now, perhaps there are legitimate answers, but may I humbly suggest that there really is nothing for him to do except accept the fact that he cannot do it. So easy, yet so difficult. Who can? God can, and enough with the #&ucking doorknob, and I won't venture an opinion about the spirituality flowing thru us, for I don't know much about it.

And now let's get to the steps and the other issue. The initial steps are those of acceptance, tough steps to really and truly give in to, but a prerequisite to working this program. It is only then that we can begin working the actions that will assist us in restoring our lives. So we need to let go and let God and then we need to work.

There is an explanation to this and one which I might even understand, but that is it for now.

B'hatzlachah

My initial post was better....sorry.

​

bahhh false alarm... here I am thinkin cords is gonna give us a run down of spirituality and housewares and he goes off into this SA step work rubbish.... 

OTR wrote on 07 Apr 2016 13:50:

Hey OTR [I think its really you this time :) ], Firstly I really enjoyed this post. Secondly, I completely agree with you that it is not advisable to compare the yetzer hara which is yetzer hara with addiction which is a disease. I think one of the reasons that its a terrible idea for guys struggling with this is the fact that we were completely unsuccessful fighting the "yetzer hara". We felt that we didnt have free will -- which many people told us was impossible. But the truth is that the gemara also says the one does not do an aveira unless a רוח שטות enters him. So that means that to some extent there is an insanity lurking in every sin. It might just be a matter of a spectrum of insanity. It doesnt really matter. But, as you said, if even a simple aveira is impossible to conquer without Hashems help, addiction על אחת כמה וכמה .

And in my initial post, I also differentiated between the gemora about yetzer hara and this addiction. Although I do not know for certain, I do not think that the gemora is referring to an addiction. Accordingly, the assistance Hashem helps with conquering the yetzer hara by an aveirah is not the same at all to what we are discussing.

If so why do you think don't chazal discuss addiction. Is it a new occurrence ?

Good question.

Reading this thread, and posting on it also, is reminding me that sometimes I get caught up in the theoretical. I have opinions on many things, but I don't always say them if they are unnecessary or they won't make a practical difference. I was the biggest mumche when I wasn't sober, I had all the best eitzos. I am trying to break away from that now.

However, when it comes to the 12 Steps I have heard from many others about the nature of them. And what I have come to realize is that God keeps me and others sober. I feel this almost tangibly. Which is why I have such strong opinions on this matter. Different people have different experiences and speculations or understanding about how the steps work. Case in point is that my favorite chapter is "We Agnostics" and apparently others don't have view. Also Skep has a completely different perspective. What I say I know for me; it may change, but right now that is the case. I also don't connect to the mindset of trying to make the steps fit in with Torah. I am too frigging desperate for my life to worry about those things. If eating turnips and doing jumping jacks would give me this kind of result, I would do it too. But apparently this is the path that God has led me and this is what he wants me to be doing now.

I am also maskim that the creators wanted people to believe in God. It is a b'feirush story in the back of the Big Book. But l'maysah the program is about "God of our understanding" and frankly I don't give a damn what the kavanos were; I have a program that works for me. Not gonna change it anytime soon, unless it is under direction from a sponsor or whatnot.

And we wish you continued success.

B'hatzlachah

mggsbms wrote on 08 Apr 2016 04:07:

How do you know they don't? It takes pleitzos to determine what the message is in different maamarei Chazal.

cordnoy wrote on 08 Apr 2016 02:36:

This discussion of surrender vs. hishtadlus has been had before, and before, and before that too.

Practically speaking from a theoretical point of view (!!!), I always understood that in every aspect of our lives, the success is in Hashem's hands, and all that we can do (and must do) is every bit of effort/hishtadlus that we can, and if we know we have truly done the hishtadlus Hashem expects of us, then be happy to accept whatever Hashem decides should be.
Maybe being a simple guy helps because I don't see the complexity in this reconciliation.
However, I do see (and experience) huge complexity in determining what is the expected hishtadlus that Hashem wants from me, but that's an individual and situation specific question, hence the complexity.

eslaasos wrote on 08 Apr 2016 14:12:

That wasn't my premise I was referring to what Cordonoy has said. There are many mamorei chazal that can be interpreted as addiction, but many people have an issue with equating the words of chazal with addiction terminology, which is understandable.

I think the reason we get caught up with this issue is because it's hard to grasp the difference between this specific addiction and the yetzer. Whereas when referring to any other addiction the difference is more pronounced.

As long as we're setting the record straight.... Shlomo how long is your streak ACTUALLY? - just tell me one thing if you don;t want to answer.  More than 1 day?

This is not Shlomos thread - I think he's over 365 day
Im chasing him at +-240