skeptical wrote on 06 Apr 2016 15:15:

If this was anybody but you skep, I would probably get upset. I'm glad your back.

Yes, even if one's doorknob is their higher power it is still a spiritual program. In terms of it being a form of CBT, well it preceded CBT by many years, the goals of Dr. Bob and Bill W. were not to create therapy. Dr. Carl Jung, the premiere psychologist of his time and one of the most well-known psychologists ever, said that only an act of God can keep the alcoholic sober. Yes, one can get credit for committing to and working a good program, but in my experience the second that I think I am keeping myself sober is also the first second of my insanity. I can't speak for others, but people like me DO NOT get sober. Every time I have tried to keep myself sober I have failed. Every damn time. Only when I really let go and let god did I get sober. And yes one can let go and let doorknob, it doesn't make a difference I think. Spirituality comes in many shapes and sizes. For some, religion is the source of their spirituality, for me it isn't. But that is just me. 

Yes I work on my character defects, but that is not what keeps me sober. The purpose of the 4th step is to realize our character defects and begin to understand the scope of what addiction has done, (or whatever anonymous or anon group it is), in order so that we can truly be free and have the power of our "Higher Power" flow through us.

Wait a minute! I am not in program right now, but I do understand what the chavra mean when they say that it is not them; that it is up to Hashem. Its a gemara. The gemara tells us that the yetzer of a person renews itself and gets stronger each and every day and if not for the help of Hashem he would not be able to overcome ! This is the surrender that I understand: "Hashem, the yetzer/disease/addiction is stronger than me. Without your help I am powerless. I therefore submit myself to your will, and ask you to remove this disease from me". This is what the Torah says.

Shlomo24 wrote on 07 Apr 2016 01:55:

Hey OTR I love what you wrote. But when you got to the doorknob I started to lose you ... doorknobs? Really?

Shlomo24 wrote:

Real Simcha I know as much as you about this program = 0%

And I believe that Skeps point is that "surrendering to Gd is not an act of Gd"

Shlomo - it takes real manpower to work the steps, however Gd is the one that does step 13 for us to open the doorknob to our sobriety

I'm sure OTR is terribly ashamed that you called me by his name

Read the chapter "We Agnostics" in the Big Book.

I agree with some of the stuff written here, and I really don't agree with other, but that's just me.  I had assumed you made up the doorknob thing skep. I also assumed you are familiar with the 12 steps, and just trying to challenge guys here to take more action, which may be the case.  Either way here are some excerpts from "Alcoholic Anonymous" if anyone finds this helpful to see the source text:

(Dr. Carl Jung's response, though obviously not verbatim)
"Here and there, once in a while, alcoholics have had what are called vital spiritual experiences...They appear to be in the nature of huge emotional displacements and rearrangements. Ideas, emotions, and attitudes which were once the guiding forces of the lives of these men are suddenly cast to one side, and a completely new set of emotions and motivations begin to dominate them..."

In explanation of the term 'spiritual experience' the book describes a "personality change sufficient to bring about recovery from alcoholism."  Typically, the person "realizes that he has undergone a profound alteration in his reaction to life; that such a change could hardly have been brought about by himself alone. What often takes place in a few months could seldom have been accomplished by years of self-discipline.  With few exceptions, our members find that they have tapped an unsuspected inner resource which they presently identify as their own conception of a Power greater than themselves." 

Last one, from the chapter "We agnostics"
"...They said G-d made these things possible, and we only smiled. We had seen spiritual release, but liked to tell ourselves it wasn't true. Actually we were fooling ourselves, for deep down in every man, woman, and child is the fundamental idea of G-d. it may be obscured by calamity, by pomp, by worship of other things, but in some form or other it is there.  For faith in a Power greater than ourselves, and miraculous demonstrations of that power in human lives, are facts as old as man himself."

Hope nobody minds me posting this. Interpret as you will

 

Thr doorknob thing wasn't made up. 

So.... there's a lot of debate about whether or not the doorknob thing was meant to be taken seriously.  Among all the dross, I found this gem 

As per Bill Wilsons story in The Big Book, you can make anything you
want your higher power. It is taught by many people in AA, that you can
even make a doorknob your higher power.

How does one get closer to your Higher Power, if you have chosen a
doorknob? (inquiring minds want to know).

One effective way is to remove an interior door in your house or
apartment from its hinges. One can then take the door and put it under
your mattress while sleeping. This does cause a raised indentation on
the mattres, however. And it can be somewhat uncomfortable while
sleeping. However, this is a small price to pay to get close to your
doorknob.

However, this may not work to well with older doors with ornate
interior doorknobs. In that case, the most effective way to get close
to your doorknob is to rub up against it several times per day. Some
people like to repeat "Thy will be done" while rubbing the doorknob.
Thats ok. .Technically, this is not called "working the steps". Its
called "rubbing the steps".

Some naysayers may say this doesn't work. Usually, they are ARFERS who
havent read the Big Book. Pay them no heed.

Shlomo24 wrote on 07 Apr 2016 02:34:

Woops! Sorry to both of you...

Cumulative Clean Days: 139

Firstly, there are many people I know for whom a doorknob is clearly on a higher plane of intellectual spiritual and emotional existence. Should those people fall victim to addiction, I see no reason why they could not use one as their higher power. In fact even if they are entirely sober, I suggest those people look up to the good character traits they can emulate in their door knobs. 

On to the recovery part- In the sixth step where we made ourselves ready, and the seventh step where we actually ASK God to remove our character flaws, it is CLEAR from the text that it is incumbent on us to take action. If you read SA where it goes through those two steps, you don't come away with this idea that you just sit back and God does it for you and you just sort of - 'get sober'. That's ridic and nobody every endorsed that. 

The Chazal which says,  Ilmaleh Hakadosh Baruch Hu Ozro- Is referring to yetzer hara. It peeves me to no end when people compare this addiction to yetzer hara. It's not. It's clearly a mental illness. THat said, if NORMAL yetzer hara requires Hashem's intervention to vanquish, then without a doubt, people with the mental illness of addiction are going to NEED intervention from above. Chazal don't say- Ilmaleh Hakadosh Baruch Hu Ozro.. while he sits back and does nothing. Any thinking person will realize that Chazal mean- WHEN a person does what is incumbent on HIMSELF to vanquish his evil inclination, THEN Hashem comes along and fills in the gaps.  Similarly with our addiction WHEN we do what is on us to do, THEN God will help us. 

With that I must thank Hashem for granting me so far 139 clean days. Most of them were high quality, clear and lucid happy to be sober, healthy clean days- with some being more rocky. I don't mean that my life has been wonderful and perfect- I have external challenges apart from being sober. What I am referring to is the quality of my sobriety, with which I am really happy.

I will continue to do what I am supposed to do to my best ability and am excited to gain more clean days in my life. Each one is a day that I can appreciate, and I would like to record every one of them in all detail so I can look back on them like one would look back on a photograph. 

Having acted out earlier this week, I still feel the residual pull toward doing it again. And that makes me sad. What I have in front of me this morning is an opportunity to experience an awesome day of sobriety and I want to feel that without the influence of my previous actions. Yep, I know that is not a fair ask, and that in truth I am to blame for my own acting out, but I am just working through some feelings here so ... pardon the mess if things are a bit jumbled. 

For the first time in a long time, I wrote an extremely long post and hit submit, and poof, it was gone. Obsolete form.

For the moment, gye editor is on my resentment list.

BH

cordnoy wrote on 07 Apr 2016 15:20:

  

It's still possibly salvageable if you check your history and look for an edit page, alternatively click the chrome back arrow or backspace a few times...

If that's the case then he's on our list as well. A summary at least !