Masterbating according to Waydown is done to relieve an uncomfortable itch

If someone has a headache and instead of taking a walk to calm down or a Tylenol, decides to take cocaine/heroin to relieve it, he is MAD but he's not selfish.

Therefore I re-voted

markz wrote:

So you agree that it's an "itch?"

markz wrote:

Waydown is entitled to his opinion, but even if he is right about himself, which is unlikely but not really any of our business, does that make it true for you too and everyone else?

polar bear wrote:

If he is not thinking about himself, why is he doing it?
I assume you meant he is not thinking about the harm he is causing himself as per the end of your sentence regarding dire consequences.
So he is ignoring the harm he is causing to himself - in order to enjoy himself. Is that not selfish, maybe even a worse kind of selfish because he is harming himself for the sake of his pleasure?

If we are talking about masturbating out of being sick such as some say about addiction, then it may be hard to define as selfish as he is out of control so he isn't deliberately indulging. But if we are talking about a healthy person who is considering whether this is a selfish activity, then if he is an observant Jew, he must know that it is a very serious sin worthy of misa biday shomayim and that The Torah considers it an abomination. If after knowing how The Torah views this activity as an act of hashchasa and he doesn't care about that and he still is considering doing it because he cares so much to pleasure himself that it doesn't even matter to him how much damage and hashchasa he is doing, he must be very very selfish. If he doesn't believe that The Torah is right in this even though he is otherwise an observant Jew, it must be that his self indulgence is so important to him that he blinds himself to the knowledge of the truth of The Torah that this is destructive behavior, so again he must be very very selfish to do that. If he is a goy who has no reason to think that this is an abomination, so he could view it as similar to having a piece of chocolate, then I don't know if it necessarily more selfish than eating chocolate.

Too much lomdus for me.
The question was if the ACTS are selfish.
Again, I am not looking for answers that depend on whether one is an addict or not.

Bigmoish wrote:
Im assuming waydown means kishuy
AlexEliezer wrote:

Kishui is uncomfortable, which is why I say it's not selfish per sè to masturbate, unless we throw religion into the equation.

Moish, is your question with the view of religion?
Then it is selfish, and I guess overeating is also selfish etc...

But Mast* isn't a good way to relieve kishui, cos it usually only exacerbates it. Its like my analogy above taking drugs instead of a tylenol

Waydown how difficult is it to tune out the kishui? Or is it easier just to let the YH take control of your mind? I'm not gonna interfere...

eslaasos wrote:


I was kind of being sarcastic with that line, reflecting how badly one can damage himself because he is not even thinking of the consequences. I would like to point out though that if you shave the topic down to it's core, selfish and bad-doing are two different things, and it seems according to the posts that users are relating them to one and the same. I'm not saying this in order to make masturbation sound like something ok, I'm just digging into the core topic. And for anyone who still feels that selfish equals bad-doing, this comment is for you:

Masturbating is definitely selfish! One who masturbates is thinking only about himself, in a very very bad/selfish way! Not only he is killing future potential children, his wife will be lonely when he is no longer interested in her! Why not already have the children and kill them off three years down the line? That's pretty much what he's doing by masturbating in the first place! If you have an itch, than wait 90 days and it should go away!

...I really hope no one is offended by this, it is slightly in jest, but there is truth behind it all. I didn't even know how to spell the word masturbate, and the auto-spell kept correcting it. I hope I'm not banned...

polar bear wrote:


I actually think that your first post was the one that equated selfishness with bad.
what's the business will killin' future potential children? Is he runnin' outta seed? yes, in a kabbalah sense, there is such a thin', but it sounds like you are referrin' to a practicality!?
his wife lonely when he no longer wants her!? what's that all about?
kill his children in three years!?
he should wait 90 days to scratch the itch!?

you write that its in jest, but I don't get the joke.
What is it that you were tryin' to say?

Thanks

Not to scratch the itch after 90 days, but that the scratch will go away.

Why don't you write the letter g at the end of your sentences?

the reason why i think masturbation is selfish is cos every aveirah brings destruction to this world in a very real way even if we dont see it immediately. however i dont think that someone who masturbates is doing so to be selfish he is just doing it cos he is giving to a urge (yetza hara). its not like he is not giving tzadoka or making a racket in middle of the night and disturbing all his neighbours ect.

Based on the previous שקלא וטריא we could separate the vote to 2

Removing religion from the equation

1- Is pornography selfish?
2- Is masturbation selfish?

My opinion
1- yes
2- not necessarily

markz wrote:

I have a very difficult time understanding this logic. Could you explain please? Once religion is removed, what makes pornography more selfish than masturbation? In my opinion, they are both acts where we hide away from the world and shut ourselves in the world of our own pleasure.

Bigmoish wrote:
correct self pleasure, but selfish as in I'm looking to take care of myself and don't care a damn about the world?
I care about others, but kishui is uncomfortable, so that's how some people decide to relieve it. So mast (unlike porn) can logically be unselfish (how's my logic - am I drunk?)

HOWEVER

Kishui for average people is easy to calm. If you decide to let it progress, it will become an urge like going to the bathroom, as mentioned waydown

I don't have much more time for this שקלא וטריא. I need to get back to my lomdus on the having fun forum

Whats the point of the thread?

If it's selfish, then.....
If not, then......

are we sellingfish