cordnoy wrote:


I'm not sure I am saying the opposite of what you are, and am not convinced that my position is accurate regardless, so I'd love to hear what you think.

When I say "we" I don't mean that each of us individually do so, though I do think that collectively it is something that we have created a society where it is the way to get noticed. Where it was the easiest way to attract male interest growing up. Where it is something that her husband wants her to do (be on display so that others see that he scored an attractive wife) etc.

I have heard from woman that they dress up more to impress their female friends (maybe compete with female friends... I don't know). That said, I do think the hyperfocus on externalities that is pervasive in society plays a role. I hope that makes some sense and would love to hear your thoughts.

My friend

Hatzileini Na wrote:

Agreed until here, that is 5% reason - so she can find a husband like mentioned below

Hatzileini Na wrote:

I don't believe this to be true. It's more like some hyper imagination that our lust has advised us about which is a figment of our dreams.
You can ask around but I quite think as Cordnoy says, all these beautifully dressed women girls are doing it mostly 95% for themselves and 5% for their husbands - ok let's not argue about the percentages.
But how many are dressing up for me and you? I don't want to let your hopes down...

[quote="Hatzileini Na" post=265450][quote="cordnoy" post=265392]Hatzileini Na wrote:
I happen to be chassidish and now I realize why chassidim put such emphasis on these stuff, we make standards and boundaries for our clothes wigs ETC... However even between us there are still some outcasts and just like getting.better and the rest of you wrote it drives me nuts sometimes.

P.S. I used to angrily try to argue with people that are not trying be so erlich as us (yet) about how people dress, I got nowhere obviously.

Firstly, why are you taking off your glasses when you walk? Do you realize every time you take off your glasses you are subconciously thinikng about women. Lust addicts have to work on being "normal" yet not taking in the shmutz. Doing crazy abnoraml things never help the situation. That doesn't mean that you should walk down a shmutzadik untznuis alley or street just to train yourself not to look. But not only do I think its useless, I think doing these farchnauikda stuff just exasporates the situation.

Re ladies dressed up in shul, personally the fact that they wera makeup and dress their best incites me. Even if they were dressed tznuis it would incite me. Yes non tznuis adds to the incitment. But my point is a yiddisha lady especailly on yom tov should look their best. Its yom tov and they should look the prettiest they can in a tznuisdik fashion. I just don't think the incitment comes from so much of the untznuis part as it does from our lust. Yes if they wore rags I wouldn't lust. (Maybe I would because I am a sick indvidual but most people).

Generally, since it is the week of the hiliega berdichiva's yartzeit, I will say the following. In our own yiddisha circles our females have exceled in tznuis tremendously over the past 75 years. My mother a hiemisha lady grew up wearing short sleeves till bas mitzva. And her bungalow had mixed swiiming for a while. When I grew up the schools were not nearly as strict as making little girls age 5& up wear at least knee socks even in 100 degrees. Our grandmothers pre WW2 dressed far differnetly from what we would like to envison. I am not knocking prior doros. They had their nisayns and they were more sincere and erlich. But I strongly believe that while the world has been taking off their clothing over the past 50 years us yidden have enhanced our tznuis tremedously.

waydown wrote:


I will need a computer to do a point by point dissection of this one.

I do love your attitude and keep it up, although I disagree with most of it.

Anxiously awaiting Cordnoy's access to a computer to give us his dissection and explain why he loves the post while disagreeing with it.
My half a cent -
waydown wrote:

Everyone's different.
I could argue that your first 2 points contradict each other; that working on being "normal" includes acknowledging that there is a woman walking down the street towards me that I will do my best not to look at.
I once made a kabolah for one week in Elul to take off my glasses in the street only for the one block from my house to shul, and I didn't feel farfrumt, I felt good that I was actively expressing my desire to be more makpid on shiras eynayim. (I didn't tell my wife because I knew she would tell me to be "normal" - but my kids told her )



Beautiful - women should look their best for Yomtov in a tzniusdig way. Thank you.



Obviously the nisayon of lust is a thousandfold stronger than it was, and just because they were wrong, (yes, not covering your hair is wrong for a woman, which is an example you didn't mention), in their accepted norms doesn't have any relevance to me today.

I am very admant about farfrumkiet. I think its wrong to be busy taking off ones glasses in the street. That does not help the real lust problem. Its just trying to avoid it. Yes perhaps in some real chasidish circles its the norm. But if you are not amoungst those circles if you do something wierd and not normal it just has negative affects.

Re my last pointer regrading our dor verse prior doros, I was not trying to suggest who is bad rather I was trying to say how BH our dor has succeded and acheived tremendous goals when it comes to tznuis. We have come a very long way and I am sure hashem is proud. How does that effect our lust. It doesn't. But its a side point to bear in mind when we here shmuzin about enhancing our wifes tznuis. Its nice to remember that we came a long way and we should be proud of it.

"It just has negative effects"
Are you implying that anyone that covers his eyes has crazy abnormal farchnauikda farfrumkeit"?
huh??

Now, there are minority crazies that take off their glasses to the street and crash into women and say "oops sorry". such a guy makes out he's a צדיק יסוד עולם...

But, lets talk about regular guys (like me - hah).

People drive from NJ to Brooklyn. You can choose to travel

a- fast route via Manhattan down west side highway that has frequent traffic stops so you can stop to look, at billboards... women and girls dressed to kill, that will keep you lusting for a month, or

b- you can take an alternate route skipping all that garbage.

You are correct, Of course I would take option b, knowing full well that I'm REMEMBERING taking lust into consideration. The same goes for taking my glasses off on rare occasion. But that does not render me "farchnauikda".

Us lust addicts have this natural condition till we die, and our success is BY REMEMBERIN' our condition, and learning how to live with it.

"It just has negative effects"
For a normal SA guy you are mistaken. It has the desired positive effect

Whatever works.

Different action for different people.

In fact, different actions for one person at different times.

Markz,

I have friends that tried the taking off glasses approach. All it did was turn them the other way. Going down a path that has les pritzus is normal. Normal humans don't take off their glasses in the street. Doing things not normal never helps. One of the many things I have learned thus far from GYE is the following. There are two ways to deal with lust. Fighting or surrendering. The suggested approach has been surrender although I contend it must be mixed with a certain level of fighting while others disagree. If you simply just fight your lust it will come back to haunt. Taking off obnes glasses and being a chiniuk is called just fighting. A better approach would be Ok I try to aviod going down a pritzus street. I take precautions to avoid bumping into lust. But if I do bump into it, I say look I am trying my hardest (You must turely try). Now I leave the rest for the eibshter to help.

I think that this thread is a rationalization for falling down the rabbit holes of porn and masturbation. We live in an era where women have availed themselves of excellent means of covering their hair and their bodies in our communities, the norms of separate dancing (and seating ) at simchas, where fights over the mechitza don't exist and where we have strong educational systems for both genders. We even see women being photocropped out of pictures or not being shown at all in frum media. The lack of Tznius in the secular world is an issue we all to avoid becoming a trigger and then presenting as a lack of committment in our communities.

waydown wrote:
I do enjoy reading your thread, but it really bothers me (and I suspect others as well) when you make blanket statements denigrating the opinions and methods of others.

Moish & Markz

I do appologize if it comes across as offensive. That is not my intention. Sorry I am not the best politcian so you will get me at my words quite often.

But here is how I would rephrase the statement Moish quoted.

When one does things that are out of the ordinary one should be very cautious and aware of the dangers and downsides towards it. Sometimes things look nice on the surface but they may not be the ultimate solution and can have negative effects upon us.

"Appropriate Dress in Shul" could have been called "Appropriate Dress in Your Head"

Yes women should be dressed appropriately, but if your community isn't like that, then a big part of the issue is our head and figuring out what response is appropriate

markz wrote:

Or...change your community? Sorry but no-one suggested that yet unless I missed it.