Does anyone on here even know what "lust" actually means? Sounds like a non-Jewish word if you ask me. We should want to have sex with our wives just like we want to eat food. Nothing wrong with hunger and nothing wrong with a healthy desire to have sex. Just has to be directed towards our wife. Of course, someone can have some form of sterile sex thinking about their taxes if that's what floats their boat but probably better to start learning how to enjoy sexual pleasure in a healthy way than becoming a sexual anorexic in response to years of abusing our bris. It's ok to be a human, and maybe not ok to try to not be one.

workingmyprogram wrote on 15 Jun 2017 00:52:

The Hebrew SA call it Ta'ava.
Does that make more sense for you?
Can you see the difference between having a loving relationship with your wife that revolves around giving whatever it is she needs to her vs fulfilling your taavos with her?

GrowStrong wrote on 15 Jun 2017 06:39:

I could be wrong, but I remember hearing a gemorrah that said that having sex without taiva for your wife is a bad thing. Also, it's not black and white. You can have sex to both give her what she needs as well as to fulfill a normal need of your own.  It's a waste of time and energy to believe that the sexual drive is bad, and then spend time repressing and fighting it, even though I know this is what SA preaches (I've had over 11 years of experience with that group). The idea that we have to wage war on "lust" is rooted in non Jewish and shameful interpretation for what the sexual drive is. You see, historically, non Jews have always viewed natural human urges as evil, and therefore the only solution is to repress them, fight them, whatever.  That's why historically their holy men don't get married, don't drink alcohol, etc... Jews take a much different approach. We believe that instinctual drives can be used for the good, and our job is to learn how to do that.  We make a bracha on wine. We make a bracha on food. It's a mitzvah to have sex. Rather than fighting our urges, we give them holy outlets.  The sex drive is no more shameful than the drive to eat or sleep, but its our past abuse of sexual pleasure that makes us believe that so called "lust" is the problem when it really isn't, rather it was how we used "lust" (I hate that word).  SA is a good program but I think that their misguided assault on the sex drive, or what they term "lust", is unhealthy and not Jewish.  It's like if OA would wage a war on hunger. Hunger is not a bad thing, it's a good thing, without it we wouldn't eat. So too with sexual desire, it's a good thing (nobody would procreate without it according to the Gemorrah), now just learn how to channel it into what's permitted.  So, yes, it's possible to enjoy the feeling of sexual pleasure and at the same time try and give pleasure to your wife.

GrowStrong wrote on 15 Jun 2017 06:39:

I could be wrong, but I remember hearing a gemorrah that said that having sex without taiva for your wife is a bad thing. Also, it's not black and white. You can have sex to both give her what she needs as well as to fulfill a normal need of your own.  It's a waste of time and energy to believe that the sexual drive is bad, and then spend time repressing and fighting it, even though I know this is what SA preaches (I've had over 11 years of experience with that group). The idea that we have to wage war on "lust" is rooted in non Jewish and shameful interpretation for what the sexual drive is. You see, historically, non Jews have always viewed natural human urges as evil, and therefore the only solution is to repress them, fight them, whatever.  That's why historically their holy men don't get married, don't drink alcohol, etc... Jews take a much different approach. We believe that instinctual drives can be used for the good, and our job is to learn how to do that.  We make a bracha on wine. We make a bracha on food. It's a mitzvah to have sex. Rather than fighting our urges, we give them holy outlets.  The sex drive is no more shameful than the drive to eat or sleep, but its our past abuse of sexual pleasure that makes us believe that so called "lust" is the problem when it really isn't, rather it was how we used "lust" (I hate that word).  SA is a good program but I think that their misguided assault on the sex drive, or what they term "lust", is unhealthy and not Jewish.  It's like if OA would wage a war on hunger. Hunger is not a bad thing, it's a good thing, without it we wouldn't eat. So too with sexual desire, it's a good thing (nobody would procreate without it according to the Gemorrah), now just learn how to channel it into what's permitted.  So, yes, it's possible to enjoy the feeling of sexual pleasure and at the same time try and give pleasure to your wife.

Yup, "the 12 steps" is not GYE, SA is not GYE, and so you can take a nice, relaxing shower now. Chill, brother.

When the ARIz"l-solution guy above shares with us that he would talk to Hashem directly about his lust and schmutz use, he was accepting that he does not have the power to overcome it. Period. He admitted that he needed Hashem to help him out.

This is completely different from the frum line we all say that "of course, every breath we take is a miracle and we need Hashem for it!" No. That is not anything like the first step of "the 12 steps" - the twelve steps only work if they are honest - but the frum line of emunah and frumkeit work just fine even if we don't really believe them. Hey - didn't all of us say those things and even teach them to others? While we were still acting out our lust? We obviously had a problem using our emunah.

Could it be that we didn't really believe that schmutz was truly bad for us (no matter what the halocha stated)? Our guts - didn't they tell us differently - that it was sweet and in our very best interest? What about our seichel that told us it was the stupidest idea to act on that lust? Surely we kept doing it because we believed that we could tolerate more of it - till after we got the job over with, of course... Then it always becomes clear, the lie...till the nect time when we again 'forget'. Why?

Could it be that we also did not really believe that Hashem knew what's really best for us? That He was not really our Best Friend of all? Weren't we sure - while planning and searching for schmutz and checking out that pretty woman's image, etc. - that the sweetness of the porn, masturbation and whatever else we liked to do was really, really good for us? Did we doubt that b'sha'as mayseh? How strong was the doubt. if it was there?

Looking at it as "the YH" actually removes personal responsibility for us. People like to say that calling it an illness does that. Really, I see it the opposite way: recovery says there are things wrong with the way I approach and respond to women, people in general, Hashem, life, and how things make me feel, that leads me to need to use lust. The resonsibility I bear in recovery and as an addict, is in recovering the sanity Hashem made me with as a kid (or before).

That's all the steps are about. Nowhere in the steps does it talk about self-esteem, and nowhere in the steps does it talk about lust - except in the 1st step. As R' Elozar ben Durdaya discovered, he had to bring the 1st step with him. Even Hashem was not going to do that for him - only the addict (and I do believe he was an addict like Par'oh was, as well) can do that. He is a yoreh chato'im baderech - sometimes by showing us (yoreh deyah), sometimes by throwing us (yaro y'yareh)....but that's all he does till we take the personal responsibility and admit - if we are addicts and truly sick - that nothing will work to fix us but Hashem Himself. Not tehillim, not learning Torah, not sex with the wife, not tevillah, not tikun klali - nothing but Retzon Atzmuso Yisborach, period.

That is why the 1st step is the only real hisarusa d'l'sata in the program.  The rest has nothing to do with lust, drinking, whetever (the problem), and is all about the solution. Any program of action that focuses on being a kodosh or doing teshuvah by constant vigilance to avoid the drinking, lusting, etc., is doomed. Even though it is definitely a mitzvah to stop treifing ourselves up and being kedoshim. That doesn't make it the correct thing to do for us, right now.

Too long a post again. Whoever reads it, drop me a line or PM and yell at me about how wrong I am if you like. But I do not want to create machlokes. For those who are afraid of "blind 12 step-is the-only-way" disease, I am with you. 12 steps cannot be the only way! And I am always available to help you dispell that sh*tttah and keep room for the "ARIz"l program", taphsic, hypnosis, or any other program that has at least some evidence.

But I do see the 12 steps as a program of living yourself itno right thinking - very akin to the words and spirit of "Na'aseh veNishmah". Simple honesty that usually leads to sanity. And I have experienced honesty as a powerful tool for recovery, for those who need it. So I'd suggest it to anyone who has 100% made up their mind that he or she is in deep trouble and cannot get out of any addiction. It has been working for me in every respect so far - I believe you'd do the same.

Love and respect to y'all - and believing that 'alexeliezer's eitza will help many,

Dov

GrowStrong wrote on 15 Jun 2017 06:39:

I could be wrong, but I remember hearing a gemorrah that said that having sex without taiva for your wife is a bad thing. Also, it's not black and white. You can have sex to both give her what she needs as well as to fulfill a normal need of your own.  It's a waste of time and energy to believe that the sexual drive is bad, and then spend time repressing and fighting it, even though I know this is what SA preaches (I've had over 11 years of experience with that group). The idea that we have to wage war on "lust" is rooted in non Jewish and shameful interpretation for what the sexual drive is. You see, historically, non Jews have always viewed natural human urges as evil, and therefore the only solution is to repress them, fight them, whatever.  That's why historically their holy men don't get married, don't drink alcohol, etc... Jews take a much different approach. We believe that instinctual drives can be used for the good, and our job is to learn how to do that.  We make a bracha on wine. We make a bracha on food. It's a mitzvah to have sex. Rather than fighting our urges, we give them holy outlets.  The sex drive is no more shameful than the drive to eat or sleep, but its our past abuse of sexual pleasure that makes us believe that so called "lust" is the problem when it really isn't, rather it was how we used "lust" (I hate that word).  SA is a good program but I think that their misguided assault on the sex drive, or what they term "lust", is unhealthy and not Jewish.  It's like if OA would wage a war on hunger. Hunger is not a bad thing, it's a good thing, without it we wouldn't eat. So too with sexual desire, it's a good thing (nobody would procreate without it according to the Gemorrah), now just learn how to channel it into what's permitted.  So, yes, it's possible to enjoy the feeling of sexual pleasure and at the same time try and give pleasure to your wife.