waydown wrote:


Hi waydown,

I want to throw in my 2 cents because you have made this point in different ways a few times.

It's always tricky disagreeing in writing where there is no tone inflection, body language etc. so you can easily be misunderstood. From reading your posts, I have the impression that you have strong opinions, but you are open to hearing the other point of view as well, and are OK with someone disagreeing with you.

My question to you is: you say your wife likes it that you lust for her.
But would she like it if she knew you were redirecting your lust from porn to her?
Would she like it if she knew she was providing you with the same service you were trying not to receive from pornstars - even with the addition of some love mixed in?
What would she say if you told her (as I think you put in a different post) that in your eyes she is just as good-looking as a pornstar?

Do you think she deserves the courtesy of at least being asked these questions so that she knows exactly what she is being involved in?

I apologize if I'm sounding harsh. I'm asking questions that most of us on GYE would have a hard time answering, but my reading of your posts indicates that you think your wife would be OK with it, or at least OK with her perception of the situation, which is not the same thing.

IMHO, (if I can't pontificate in an anonymous online forum, where can I?), women have a harder time separating "making love" from "having sex", so perhaps to a woman the idea that her husband wants her means that he wants her, in a different way than what it means to him.




I think I can halfway accept the idea that for now you want to use any tool in the shed to keep yourself from acting out. However, to know if you're honestly using it only for that purpose, the lithmus test would be that although in the heat of the moment you promised yourself that you would later indulge with a hechsher, when later arrives if you are then (hopefully)on the other side of the lust attack, you would not actually follow through. Not to say you wouldn't provide your wife with a pleasant evening in whatever way she enjoys, but it would no longer be a redirect from porn, because the porn is not currently an issue.
Yes, you promised yourself, but assuming that deep down (way down ) you really don't want to redirect your lust from porn to your wife, you'll be OK with the new change of course. You would feel better that instead of settling for the interim goal of redirecting lust to be mixed with love(!) you would prefer to abandon your lust in favor of love, because that's really your ultimate goal.

Bottom line, lust is about me, love is about someone else. Those 2 are inherently contradictory, just like physicality and spirituality (guf and neshama). It's beyond my ability to figure out how to mix the two. Unfortunately, it'a also above my head (for now?) to figure out how to move from one to the other, when the physical action is externally very similar.

I look forward to hearing where you disagree, and why. Perhaps you passed the lithmus test, and perhaps your wife is fine with being compared to pornstars. If so, my post is misdirected.

waydown wrote:


According to my therapist, addiction is always co-morbid with another emotional vulnerability. Agav, he doesn't believe people are addicts, only that they engage in addictive behavior.

www.drugabuse.gov/publications/drugfacts/comorbidity-addiction-other-mental-disorders

How Common Are Comorbid Drug Addiction and Other Mental Illnesses?

Many people who are addicted to drugs are also diagnosed with other mental disorders and vice versa. For example, compared with the general population, people addicted to drugs are roughly twice as likely to suffer from mood and anxiety disorders, with the reverse also true.

I don't think this is a proof against the therapist because he may be more expansive in his definition of an emotional vulnerability, but I will ask him.

Eslassos,

Wow let me see if I can answer many of your pointers,

Firstly chas vasholom did I say my wife is like a porn star. What I am saying very clearly is. That I truely believe in terms of just the looks and lust aspect she is just as pretty if not preetier. Now take that and mesh it with the fact that porn stars aare worse than shallow and rather filthy on the inside. She on the other hand is pure and holy within. Now mix the the two together.

Re; What would she say if you told her (as I think you put in a different post) that in your eyes she is just as good-looking as a pornstar?

I have told her that on numerous occasions. There is no secret that porn stars look good. I think most ladies appreciate when you tell then you look like a model. Obviously if thats all there is then you have probelms. But as I mentioned in the first paragraph, she knows that I appreicate her inner bachainta beauty as well. She knows that when I say she looks like a model I don't mind she is shallow and filthy on the inside. I simply mean out exterior looks are georgeous.

Re Would she like it if she knew she was providing you with the same service you were trying not to receive from pornstars - even with the addition of some love mixed in?

Like I said she is not providng the "same service". There is love and an inner connection as well.

Re. But would she like it if she knew you were redirecting your lust from porn to her?

Well here you got me. Because yes of course she doesn't want me to lust for porn. Of course she doesn't want me to lust for other woman. But at the same time she understands that men are created with lust. She is not stupid. I have told her on occasions wow that lady is good looking. She knows I am human.

I totally agree with your last assertion. There are many times when by the time the night comes my lust attack is not there. And I still provide my wife with same pleasant evening. ALthough I will point ut something. My experience has been that If I have a lust attack during the day, I still itch a bit that evening. And so physically I am not totaly removed from that lust attack. That doesn't mean that the itch is at the level of a strong desire to view porn but its still there.

Re, Bottom line, lust is about me, love is about someone else.

My feeling is that those two are not contridactory at all. I can satisify my needs while caring about someoneelse as well. We do that all the time. I eat dinner for my hunger craves but I also try to love my wife while eating a pleasant dinner as well. If its all about myself then I got problems.

Ok I still need to stick to the main theme of this post, "solutions for tonight".

I have noticed that I got used to the idea about falling asleep without M"Z. So I take a distatction to bed. But when the baby wakes me up in middle of the nite and I am all farmished, twisting & turning in bed lust still takes hold of me and I fall.

Any solutions?

waydown wrote:


See above (the previous 13 pages); I'm sure there is somethin' that works in middle of the night as well.

I wonder...if one is farmished, does he eat only livestock or grains?

Cordnoy,

Your general answer is surrender. But comeon its not abracdabra its a process. It takes time. Even you will tell me go thru the whitebook cover to cover and internalize it etc.. In the interim don't we need short term solutions?

waydown wrote:


true surrender worked for me from day one even when i didn't know diddly-squat abt program

so Shlomo tell me what I have to do for true surrender. I wanna start my day one today!

what i did was really give it over to god. explain what i am thinking about, what i want to do in my fantasies etc. i would ask him to please take it away (sincerely) because i just can not deal with these things. i am just not wired that way. i needed to get rid of it and i knew he could do it for me if i would seek it out. sometimes with a particular fantasy it would recur and i would have to surrender multiple times, but i have found that god does take it away if i am sincere.

check this out, i posted abt it a while ago
guardyoureyes.com/forum/19-Introduce-Yourself/241596-Big-Steps?limit=15&start=45

(second post on the page)

Ok so when I wake up and get an itch just say hashem its all yours and I am not trying to fight it since I am powerless.

And even though it makes zero sense it just works like magic its fool proof?

And it sounds like I say it just once because if not I am fighting my lust. Then I lie down. I can't sleep because the baby cryes again or I just simply don't fall asleep. The itch comes back again now what. I can't say anyhting or fight it because I am not allowed to fight. So now what? Or no it won't come back it will just run away like magic???

Can I go to bed with a distraction or is that also "fighting" it?

Maybe it depends on the level of sincerity in the surrender.

With regard to the previous post, I still disagree with a lot of what you say but it is more of an emotional response that it feels wrong as opposed to a logical argument, so I have held off on responding until I had more time to think about it. I don't see myself having a lot of time in the near future so here's my half-baked response.

waydown wrote:


I don't want to mix the two together. I don't think porn should be associated with the natural desire that Hashem gave us which is pure and only for our wives. I can't give you a source so if I had time and ability I would do some research into bnei tesha middos, the moral of the story where the Gemara tells about having relations "as if coerced by a demon", Avrohom Avinu not knowing that his wife was pretty until they went to Egypt etc. I know that we are nowhere near their levels, but if the Torah included those points, there is a lesson in it for eternity, including a low generation like ours.




I'm sorry but I can't relate to that. I asked my wife how she wold feel if I told her she looked better than a model, and she would not appreciate it. Kal vchomer a pornstar!
Also if I mentioned a pornstar, she would want to know why that's a frame of reference for me, and she would have good reason to assume that I have more involvement than I should with that type of creature.




Does she also see it as not being the same service?
Also, even according to you it is the same service with an added component.




I'm not sure you can separate the questions because this one adds context to the others.



My point was that you would try not to have a pleasant evening, and it would be relevant only if she initiated. Otherwise, you would do your best to avoid contaminating the purity of your mikdash me'at with the sewage online. In fact, you might want to claim you have a headache



Self-interest, and doing for someone else are contradictory. Occasionally, those interests coincide. If the motivation remains lust, that aspect of it is in contradiction to being about someone else.



Is that a fair comparison? When you eat, it is bein odom l'atzmo, between you and no-one else (maybe Hashem). You don't love the steak, if you did, you wouldn't kill the cow, you would make sure it was living in a very comfortable barn with plenty of fresh hay and water

Well eis lassos thanks for ur reposnse my time i limited as well now.

But yes I agree comparing one's wife to a porn star is bad but my wife loves when I say she looks like a model. Now of course the shpitz is to only love ones wife and the torah is teaching us that is the ultimate desired goal. But we are human beings that are subject to wordly matters. Thus till we reach that lofty goal I think its fine and expected to mix lust with love. As I mentioned according to your logic why should a lady wear make up and look nice for her husband. Isn't that all etxerior stuff. Yet any sain person,kala tecaher tells a lady look good externally for your husband. Because hashem wants us to use our lust stirctly for our wives.

Its a very differnet service when love is mixed in. Its not the "same service as porn". Once you have love mixed in, love is the primary focus lust lust is mixed in.

Re "Self-interest, and doing for someone else are contradictory. Occasionally, those interests coincide. If the motivation remains lust, that aspect of it is in contradiction to being about someone else."
I see nothing contridctary in satisfying ones needs while also giving to someoneelse. It may not be the ultimate form of giving but its not a contridiction at all. Lust is not the motivation. Love is. But it also statsifies my lust. I don't see its is an all or nothing approach. And frankly my wife is OK and actually excited that I itch for her. It makes her fell good too.

Ok eis lassos re your other pointer,

So I have to be sincere in believing that some magic irrtaional trick works. (Not to knock it at all just saying how its being precieved in my mind). Now that takes time to internalize. Am I a lost cause till I train my mind to believe it or is there a short term solution.

As a side note I still believe that if I fight hard enough hashem will take care of the rest. But that seems to be the wrong approach according to you guys. You say no don't fight just leave it to hashem without fighting.

However lets stick to my main goal staying clean tonight. Waht do I do if I am not sincere enough with the surrender approach?

It was mentioned recently Cordnoy owns an uzzi and Eslaasos a desert eagle.. So how about you email them your home address, and then when baby wakes you with a itch, reach out again to the above mentioned truckers. I think it's a easy way to surrender. Seriously try it and tell me how it goes