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TOPIC: Tryin' 265837 Views

Re: Tryin' 11 Apr 2016 00:50 #284243

  • cordnoy
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ineedchizuk wrote on 03 Sep 2014 03:32:
For background, here's part of our conversation the other day from DD'S thread:

cordnoy wrote:
there is nothin' ever to apologize to me for.

I will not delve more into the tzadik gamur issue, except to say that I do not consider myself one; nor do I consider myself a baal teshuvah, and this part is actually important to me, for I have not done at all the charatah al ha'avar and I do not think too much about the kabbalah al ha'asid, although that is beginnin' to creep in. Azivas hacheit is there. Viduy also not.

thanks



cordnoy wrote:
Azivas hacheit means one thing and one thing only (and by the way, that's why there are four components and not just one).
I could give an example, but instead I will talk about myself (like others should as well, but that's their business):
I stopped or am stoppin' because my life was/is unmanageable.....that happens to be azivas hacheit.
I do not have charatah on the past, and I have not accepted to not sin in the future; so I am still missin' those two components.

Iy"H, that will fall into place one day.

ineedchizuk wrote:
Holy bruthu Cordy,

'My life was unmanageable' is charata. Charata is regret. Not guilt. When you truly are aware that it's ruining your life, as you constantly (and humbly) remind us, saying 'I couldn't go on like this- I don't want this', that's charata lichatchila!

Committed to being clean TODAY without getting overwhelmed by what the future will bring is true kabala al heusid- it's a solid plan. It also means I'm humble enough not to think the nisayon is gone forever. (The sketchy letting go is the opposite- what many share when they join as part of the vicious cycle: ie. 'I told Hashem I promise I'll never do it again')

Azivas hacheit- that you acknowledge.

So thanks for teaching me how to do tshuva!



cordnoy wrote:
While I appreciate what you wrote, it would seem to me that according to Rabbeinu Yonah, it is not correct (and I can't believe that I am bein' baited into this, or perhaps, I did it to myself): He writes that charatah is understandin' in one's heart that it's rotten and bitter that he left Hashem, and realize that there is punishment and vengeance from Hashem, and that one should say, "What did I do? how could I not have had the fear of God before me? Why did I not accept rebuke on this, and all for a momentary pleasure? what have I done to my pure soul?"

this is all included in charatah....all these things did not/does not enter my mind. Like I wrote before...iy"H it will, but realizin' that my life was unmanageable is not charatah al ha'avar that is an ikar component of teshuvah.

thanks again


They ganged up on me then as well.
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Re: Tryin' 11 Apr 2016 06:04 #284273

  • realsimcha
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cordnoy wrote on 11 Apr 2016 00:50:

ineedchizuk wrote on 03 Sep 2014 03:32:
For background, here's part of our conversation the other day from DD'S thread:

cordnoy wrote:
there is nothin' ever to apologize to me for.

I will not delve more into the tzadik gamur issue, except to say that I do not consider myself one; nor do I consider myself a baal teshuvah, and this part is actually important to me, for I have not done at all the charatah al ha'avar and I do not think too much about the kabbalah al ha'asid, although that is beginnin' to creep in. Azivas hacheit is there. Viduy also not.

thanks



cordnoy wrote:
Azivas hacheit means one thing and one thing only (and by the way, that's why there are four components and not just one).
I could give an example, but instead I will talk about myself (like others should as well, but that's their business):
I stopped or am stoppin' because my life was/is unmanageable.....that happens to be azivas hacheit.
I do not have charatah on the past, and I have not accepted to not sin in the future; so I am still missin' those two components.

Iy"H, that will fall into place one day.

ineedchizuk wrote:
Holy bruthu Cordy,

'My life was unmanageable' is charata. Charata is regret. Not guilt. When you truly are aware that it's ruining your life, as you constantly (and humbly) remind us, saying 'I couldn't go on like this- I don't want this', that's charata lichatchila!

Committed to being clean TODAY without getting overwhelmed by what the future will bring is true kabala al heusid- it's a solid plan. It also means I'm humble enough not to think the nisayon is gone forever. (The sketchy letting go is the opposite- what many share when they join as part of the vicious cycle: ie. 'I told Hashem I promise I'll never do it again')

Azivas hacheit- that you acknowledge.

So thanks for teaching me how to do tshuva!



cordnoy wrote:
While I appreciate what you wrote, it would seem to me that according to Rabbeinu Yonah, it is not correct (and I can't believe that I am bein' baited into this, or perhaps, I did it to myself): He writes that charatah is understandin' in one's heart that it's rotten and bitter that he left Hashem, and realize that there is punishment and vengeance from Hashem, and that one should say, "What did I do? how could I not have had the fear of God before me? Why did I not accept rebuke on this, and all for a momentary pleasure? what have I done to my pure soul?"

this is all included in charatah....all these things did not/does not enter my mind. Like I wrote before...iy"H it will, but realizin' that my life was unmanageable is not charatah al ha'avar that is an ikar component of teshuvah.

thanks again


They ganged up on me then as well.

Confused. If addiction is a disease not to be compared to yetzer hara [as you wrote on another thread [unless i misunderstood], what is the teshuva for? Do you do teshuva for cancer? I sense that there is a difference and there is a place for teshuva even with the disease definition of addiction but  I am having a hard time putting it into words. Can you share your thoughts?

Re: Tryin' 11 Apr 2016 13:12 #284287

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Answer in short, very short....

We all make or made choices, some were big ones, others were small. Although many have reached a point where they couldn't overcome, there were and are choices along the way as well.

Nevertheless, stopping is the first priority, and that comes by living life the way it was meant to be.
My email: thenewme613@hotmail.com
My threads: Mikvah Night - Page 1, Page 2, Page 3, Last Page

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:pinch: Warning: Spoiler!
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Re: Tryin' 11 Apr 2016 15:05 #284295

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realsimcha wrote on 11 Apr 2016 06:04:

cordnoy wrote on 11 Apr 2016 00:50:

ineedchizuk wrote on 03 Sep 2014 03:32:
For background, here's part of our conversation the other day from DD'S thread:

cordnoy wrote:
there is nothin' ever to apologize to me for.

I will not delve more into the tzadik gamur issue, except to say that I do not consider myself one; nor do I consider myself a baal teshuvah, and this part is actually important to me, for I have not done at all the charatah al ha'avar and I do not think too much about the kabbalah al ha'asid, although that is beginnin' to creep in. Azivas hacheit is there. Viduy also not.

thanks



cordnoy wrote:
Azivas hacheit means one thing and one thing only (and by the way, that's why there are four components and not just one).
I could give an example, but instead I will talk about myself (like others should as well, but that's their business):
I stopped or am stoppin' because my life was/is unmanageable.....that happens to be azivas hacheit.
I do not have charatah on the past, and I have not accepted to not sin in the future; so I am still missin' those two components.

Iy"H, that will fall into place one day.

ineedchizuk wrote:
Holy bruthu Cordy,

'My life was unmanageable' is charata. Charata is regret. Not guilt. When you truly are aware that it's ruining your life, as you constantly (and humbly) remind us, saying 'I couldn't go on like this- I don't want this', that's charata lichatchila!

Committed to being clean TODAY without getting overwhelmed by what the future will bring is true kabala al heusid- it's a solid plan. It also means I'm humble enough not to think the nisayon is gone forever. (The sketchy letting go is the opposite- what many share when they join as part of the vicious cycle: ie. 'I told Hashem I promise I'll never do it again')

Azivas hacheit- that you acknowledge.

So thanks for teaching me how to do tshuva!



cordnoy wrote:
While I appreciate what you wrote, it would seem to me that according to Rabbeinu Yonah, it is not correct (and I can't believe that I am bein' baited into this, or perhaps, I did it to myself): He writes that charatah is understandin' in one's heart that it's rotten and bitter that he left Hashem, and realize that there is punishment and vengeance from Hashem, and that one should say, "What did I do? how could I not have had the fear of God before me? Why did I not accept rebuke on this, and all for a momentary pleasure? what have I done to my pure soul?"

this is all included in charatah....all these things did not/does not enter my mind. Like I wrote before...iy"H it will, but realizin' that my life was unmanageable is not charatah al ha'avar that is an ikar component of teshuvah.

thanks again


They ganged up on me then as well.

Confused. If addiction is a disease not to be compared to yetzer hara [as you wrote on another thread [unless i misunderstood], what is the teshuva for? Do you do teshuva for cancer? I sense that there is a difference and there is a place for teshuva even with the disease definition of addiction but  I am having a hard time putting it into words. Can you share your thoughts?


I have never heard anyone say that addiction started OUT as a disease. Even in the big book, he started drinking and enjoying and by the time he realized that it was killing him, he couldn't get out.

In everyone here's case, there was a point they could have stopped. The addiction only came after a certain amount of a prohibited behavior. For some, it may have been looking at naked ladies once or masturbating once- but they could have chosen not to do it then.

Also, and I believe Rabbi Twersky says this, you do Teshuva because you should have gotten help. We might not be mad at someone with cancer, but if he refuses his pills we'll be furious.

Re: Tryin' 11 Apr 2016 22:26 #284328

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Cords and Workingguy, 

I hear what you are saying. Thanks for the added clarity. In terms of what you mentioned Workinguy, I am not sure that it is always the case that we were able to stop in the beginning. In my case, I had no understanding of what was happening to me. Why I was acting this way and why I couldnt get it under control. In fact for me any element of "control" came later after I started to understand what it was that was going on inside me. Thats my experience. I am sure that for alot of people it went exactly the way you described, that it was a guilty pleasure in the beginning that morphed into an obsession and an addiction. What Cords wrote speaks to me. Even in a world of no control nothing is absolute. And there are alot of layers and I can still make amends for the areas the times and the ways that I could have refrained from making a mess of things.

another thing. Even when it comes to making amends to spouses, family or friends, we arent saying that we had control. We are saying that our situation caused you damage and pain. And we are taking responsibility for that. Maybe I did have control and maybe I didnt, but I still have to take responsibility for what I did. In that case is it crazy to say the same thing to Hashem? "I was out of control. But a made a mess of things and didnt live up to my mission of bringing honor to You. For this I need to make amends." For many of us. as Cords said, our actions - i.e. working a program - speak louder than words.

Re: Tryin' 12 Apr 2016 04:56 #284364

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 In my case, irrelevant of the hashkafic argument, I find it hard to do teshuva right now. When I think of all that I have done I get very depressed and down. It's not good for me right now, maybe in the future I will be ready. What I try to do is make "living amends," live life how I beleive my higher power, (aka Hashem), wants me to right now. I don't believe that God needs my amends, however I need my amends. And this is how I am achieving that for now.
If you're an LGBTQ or LGBTQ-questioning person and looking for someone who can understand you, feel free to reach out. I promise no judgement and to try and listen the best I can. 

Email: iam24zman@gmail.com

Re: Tryin' 12 Apr 2016 19:01 #284405

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Met a fellow last night who never met with another real live gye fellow before.

He seemed thrilled.

BH
My email: thenewme613@hotmail.com
My threads: Mikvah Night - Page 1, Page 2, Page 3, Last Page

https://guardyoureyes.com/forum/1-Break-Free/210029-Tryin
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Re: Tryin' 13 Apr 2016 01:44 #284435

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cordnoy wrote on 12 Apr 2016 19:01:
Met a fellow last night who never met with another real live gye fellow before.

He seemed thrilled.

BH

Too bad there weren't two.
BIG SHOT!
Free Choice?!
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STORY TIME :)

Dr. Seuss - You have brains in your head. You have feet in your shoes. You can steer yourself in any direction you choose. You're on your own, and you know what you know. And you are the guy who'll decide where to go.

FSKOT! (Fell Shmell--Keep on Trucking) (The Rebba R' Bards)

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Re: Tryin' 13 Apr 2016 04:52 #284454

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stillgoing wrote on 13 Apr 2016 01:44:

cordnoy wrote on 12 Apr 2016 19:01:
Met a fellow last night who never met with another real live gye fellow before.

He seemed thrilled.

BH

Too bad there weren't two.

Sorry.
My email: thenewme613@hotmail.com
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Re: Tryin' 14 Apr 2016 02:18 #284534

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Just as appreciation and for the record - one of the highlights of last week was my first call with cordnoy!

Guys if he's avail for crazies like me, he's definitely open to chat with someone sensible like you!

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Re: Tryin' 19 Apr 2016 17:17 #285266

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I am headin' outta office and iy"H will call in.
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Re: Tryin' 21 Apr 2016 17:12 #285608

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We tryin' for last call before pesach break in ten minutes. 

Will be drivin'.
No book readin'.

If you gonna be shy, don't bother callin'.

Someone on email group, please copy this and send to oilam.

Thanks
My email: thenewme613@hotmail.com
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Re: Tryin' 22 Apr 2016 02:17 #285649

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OPAAT!!!!
My email: thenewme613@hotmail.com
My threads: Mikvah Night - Page 1, Page 2, Page 3, Last Page

https://guardyoureyes.com/forum/1-Break-Free/210029-Tryin
:pinch: Warning: Spoiler!
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Quote from the chevra: "Is Cordnoy truly a Treasure Island pirate from the Southern Seas?"

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Re: Tryin' 28 Apr 2016 02:40 #286026

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cordnoy wrote on 26 Apr 2016 03:23:

thanks613 wrote on 26 Apr 2016 02:31:

cordnoy wrote on 25 Apr 2016 23:20:
Re: SG's question to shlomo..... Zohar says that matzah is bread of emunah, and the מפרשים ask: if so, we should eat it all year? The answer given is that it is like an antibiotic.

Funny... I've heard pretty much the same thing about the 12 steps[attachment=4790]alltogethernow.jpg 

I don't understand the comparison.
Usually when that happens here, I let it go, but here I am hesitant, for I don't view the 12 steps as an antibiotic at all.

I have heard the 12 steps compared to a treatment like chemotherapy for example.  It is an effective but intensive treatment for a serious disease.  While it is a lifeline for some, it would not be recommended for someone who didn't have the disease, for obvious reasons.  That's as far as the comparison goes.  I understand (or at least think I do) that the 12 steps are more of lifestyle change than a drug that you take until you are "better".  Maybe I took the comment out of context from what the Zohar piece was about.  

Hope I caused no offense.
 

Re: Tryin' 28 Apr 2016 02:53 #286029

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thanks613 wrote on 28 Apr 2016 02:40:

cordnoy wrote on 26 Apr 2016 03:23:

thanks613 wrote on 26 Apr 2016 02:31:

cordnoy wrote on 25 Apr 2016 23:20:
Re: SG's question to shlomo..... Zohar says that matzah is bread of emunah, and the מפרשים ask: if so, we should eat it all year? The answer given is that it is like an antibiotic.

Funny... I've heard pretty much the same thing about the 12 steps[attachment=4790]alltogethernow.jpg 

I don't understand the comparison.
Usually when that happens here, I let it go, but here I am hesitant, for I don't view the 12 steps as an antibiotic at all.

I have heard the 12 steps compared to a treatment like chemotherapy for example.  It is an effective but intensive treatment for a serious disease.  While it is a lifeline for some, it would not be recommended for someone who didn't have the disease, for obvious reasons.  That's as far as the comparison goes.  I understand (or at least think I do) that the 12 steps are more of lifestyle change than a drug that you take until you are "better".  Maybe I took the comment out of context from what the Zohar piece was about.  

Hope I caused no offense. 

I am not a 12 steps expert, but I know that Rabbi Twersky says that everyone - even non-addicts - could gain from a 12 step program. Thats why he wrote "Waking up just in time" and "When do the good things start" עיין שם
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