stopsurvivingstartliving wrote on 05 Sep 2024 08:42:

I’m very well acquainted with the Yetzer Hora, he always claims to be a friend of mine, so I know his style well. This argument is a classic of his. 

Here ate a few reasons why he is wrong: 
1. Every bit of fighting is valuable. Because that fact that you hold back and avoid porn, that you don’t go and seek it out even as you feel its powerful pull- that’s YOU fighting. If you’re a fighter then you’re not “no shaychus “, you are in the battle. Thats the same Koach that gives you the courage to hold on and not fall a second time after a first fall, which has immeasurable value in building yourself up in so many ways. 

2. There’s a huge difference in a fall that you actively seek out, and one that happens when the situation comes to you. 

3. And there’s a world of a difference between what porn does to you and what lusting in the street does to you. The level of poison in the blood doesn’t compare. 

Friend -you are a fighter. You held on for pretty much the whole Bein Hazmanim! You certainly “have Shaychus”! 

Now it’s time to start controlling your eyes in the street. Start with a little, doable step. (Like avoiding certain places by day). 
That will help everything else become easier. 

Don’t listen to the YH’s Sevoros, he ain’t your friend. 

Much continued Hazlacha, 
Chaim Oigen 

stopsurvivingstartliving wrote on 05 Sep 2024 08:42:

Not much to add to R' CO's very articulate post.

But a good rule of thumb is anything saying "I am no shaychas anyway" is directly quoting from p. 22 of the Yetzer Hara's playbook.

Buddy, I've been on most of the streets of Jerusalem and idk where you're walking but they def. ain't porn. (Though there is this one block of Tel Aviv . . . This is a joke. Chill.)

Of course someone can be "only" looking at women on the streets and be equally sick with lust as someone watching porn. (See this post as a random example.) But from your posts it sounds like you are nowhere near that level (correct me if I'm wrong here.) You aren't going at to specific places to look at women, you aren't following people around, you aren't obsessing over them. 

Generally speaking, men have eyes and shmiras eiynayim on the street is a real, lifelong fight. Don't knock the level you are holding. You haven't gone and searched out porn (despite your "lack of access", when there's a will there's a way). You're fighting the good fight with masturbation. And your "street looking" is (probably) "normal" and can be dealt with.

As R' CO said, take a step towards controlling yourself in the street. Keep on working on masturbation, keep on connecting, keep on learning (are you reading TBOTG?), keep on fighting. And be proud of where you've gotten.

Keep on proudly trucking!

Fell really bad today. I feel like a sucker for falling. But tbh I don't feel bad mitzad the sin shebo! I think I am screwed up

why do you think you are screwed up? You were doing very well. 

stopsurvivingstartliving wrote on 05 Sep 2024 20:49:

I'm sorry friend, but I have 'bad' news for you

BenHashemBH wrote on 05 Sep 2024 21:08:

I feel like I hashkafically disagree with this. Of course, everything Hashem does is for the ultimate good. And it's also correct for the short term, whether we see it or not. But, like, there are things that are "abnormal" and "screwed up". Certainly the things we do can "screw up" ourselves. That's the meaning of bechirah, like it or not.

Getting cancer is pretty screwed up. Someone strung out on heroin has screwed themselves up pretty badly. 

All that being said, someone masturbating themselves occasionally is probably not screwed up. They're probably just a normal dude. 

(Always worth a call to Dov to talk over if they are sick with lust addiction though.)

Just want to spill some honesty (not seed):

I joined the GYE way back chanukah time. I called GYE and they told me to contact someone. Months later I found out who he was (HHM), at the time I didn't even know he struggled. He pumped some motivation into me and got me going a nice streak both on P and M. I had a few falls to P afterwards and a nice amount to M. I came to israel and starting wasting seed a few times a week. Felt very guilty but didn't know what to do (was too embarrassed to call HHM and tell him I am falling again, because I felt that he thought I am fixed and I felt bad telling him his hours on the phone with me lost there frishkeit). At one point I saw a sign up from someone saying he struggled from the worst parts of the internet for years. He wrote how even after all that there is hope. He gave his email address. I contacted him and he suggested I join GYE (and of course read TBOTG). So I joined and it helped me for a while. The past month and a half I only wasted 4 or 5 times. Amazing compared to my post-pesach pre-GYE days! (I wish I can internalize this accomplishment and pump my low self esteem with it).

But something that was on my mind the whole time is: "I don't really want to change" (I was gonna right "do I really want to change, but I would have got back in response. "You do! It's your YH telling you otherwise..."). I just stop doing it because if I live that life I will walk around with a million pounds of guilt, which feels horrible. The guilt is what stops me. That is my motivation. So my question is what to do. On top of that my ruchniyus stinks these days so I don't have the "shteiging motivation" it's more like "ok add the porn watching and mz''l to the list of sins", "it just makes the pile a bit higher, big deal". I am zapped from being an oived hashem and don't have much patience doing much.

PS some of this was just venting, I am not sure it all has to do with each other.

Have a wonderful day Truckers!!!!!

chosemyshem wrote on 05 Sep 2024 21:19:

You are right Shem.

Sorry for writing it in a confusing way. Of course we can choose things that are not correct. What I meant to refer to was that his life is not henceforth screwed up (my spoiler responding to SSSL's spoiler). 

Thank you for clarifying!

Wow that is heavy.
Not much to say.

Just, Brother, I feel your pain.
Here is a warm hug.

Hang in there. We are here for you as much as we can be. We will listen to you vent and commiserate with you. We know you have it in you to,
1. Really want to change.
2. Really change.

you are part of 'us truckers'

How about answering the three questions in the Flight to Freedom program on paper or the computer, what bothers me with my current behavior, what are the worst things that can happen to me if this continues, what are the best things that can happen to me if I change, and also setting your core values from the program, choosing five from the list. The answer to the three questions should include a lot about your day-to-day life and not just spiritual aspects. It is when you see how it ruins your regular life that you beat the Yetzer Hora because to that he has no answer. Answering the questions should take up a few pages. I am not following your thread so I may be off target.

I think that you are hitting an important point. 

If you only don’t want to engage in masturbation and porn becuase you’ll feel guilt afterwards, and becuase you don’t want to go to gehenom, maybe, or get zapped by Hashem, you have a problem. Because you don’t WANT TO CHANGE. You do not want Tahara/sobriety/cleanliness/Kedusha. You only want to not get zapped.

Is that the case? Do you have any other motivation? When you are clean, do you feel good?  Do you feel good about yourself when you’re on your streak, when you hung on and overcome? Are there moments that you feel that Hashem is worth a. Relationship other than in relations to him as  “Zapper In Chief” ? Is there a positive to a life in which are aren’t compelled to open your zipper or stare down the shirt of passing women? 

I suspect that there may be more to what you are feeling than guilt. 

And I wonder if major falls taking place right when the Elul Zman  starts may not be an unhappy coincidence …. 

Here for you friend. Becuase I think there is more to what you want out of life than you are letting yourself realize….

Maybe I’m wrong. 
But I’m still here for you. 

Have us in mind, please. Look up at the impossibly blue Jerusalem sky and daven for me. Cause I wish I was there now, actually. 

המצפה לחיים

Spillin' honesty like seed
A bent unbroken reed
Body wants its needs
Don't follow it - lead

Feeling empty and lost
Zapped by the boss
Wanna get up and toss
It all, take the loss

He's got a list o' sins
scared of coming din
chuck it in the bin
outta strength, fin.

Anywayyyyyyy
chosemyshem wrote on 05 Sep 2024 16:07:

But. I will repeat something Dov likes to say.

It's harder in a way for bochurim to get clean. Because porn isn't hurting your life. This is for the simple reason that many bochurim have no life. 

Oh they have yeshiva, friends, family whatever. First seder, second seder, thursday night chulent seder. But they have no life. I'm not trying to put yeshiva down in any way. But an unfortunate number of bochurim are just getting through the day. They're not shtelling tzu to yeshiva as a way of life. And since yeshiva is where they spend their whole life, and yeshiva is not their life, they're left with not much as a life.

And when you have no life, lust does not interfere with your life. "Oy, I watched porn for the whole second seder." But so what?? There's some religious guilt, maybe a fear of getting in trouble, definitely a feeling of being a loser. But there's no interference with your life, and the feeling that lust is interfering with your life is the single biggest motivator to getting clean.

This is Dov's torah, as I understand it.

This is not an insurmountable obstacle. I'm just recognizing that this feeling you have is coming from a really true place. And now that you understand that feeling is true, you can work on the solution. GET INVOLVED. Start working on feeling lust is an opportunity for aseh tov instead of sur m'rah, and work on feeling the joy and making it into a positive experience. Connect to something in your life and make a life out of your days and the desire to stop will come from that. Find a goal that speaks to you and connect with it. Grit your teeth and try and you'll succeed (see relevant Peanuts attached).

Someone mentioned this sefer to me over Shabbos and I immediately thought of Shem's post.

Has anyone read Rabbi Lopiansky's new(er?) book Ben Yeshiva?

I'm curious how he (presumably) addresses some of these questions. Will probably add it to my (ever increasing) list of books I'd like to learn.

Kol Tov

BenHashemBH wrote on 09 Sep 2024 12:04:

I was actually just thinking I should have included this book in the post.

The book is amazing in that he identifies a theoretical structure and purpose to the yeshiva years. (He also addresses many practical issues and ideas relevant to those years.)

I wish it had existed when I was in yeshiva, although I'm 99% sure it wouldn't have made much of a difference. The reason I suspect it wouldn't have made a difference is that at the end of the day, it's very difficult to start connecting to life just because a book tells you there's a structure and purpose to what you are doing.

I suspect that what's more important than seforim and conceptual frameworks is bochurim connecting to yeshiva life via things like celebrating short-term accomplishments, personal connections to rabbeim and mentors, a feeling of identifying as a member of that yeshiva etc. etc. Well beyond the scope of this forum though, and I'm the opposite of a mechanech.

I haven't posted the last few days mainly because I had a few falls and I was feeling very down and not in the mood of help.

At one point right after a fall I sent a text to a fellow GYE'er telling him how I just spent a few hours trying to break through my filter (and I succeeded) and I am not doing good. He offered me to come meet him. At first I was hesitant and nervous but I knew it's good for me and I went for it.

He have me HOURS of his time. Real tzidkus. He helped me understand how marriage is not the way out of the battle. He explained to me how on the womens side they are not there for the physical pleasure, which is something a bachur who watched porn can be oblivious of. With all the scenes it seems the opposite. Finding this out shows how fake every second of the scenes are.

A big topic was to figure out, not how to stop, rather why you started. We discussed how people turn to porn and masturbation thinking it will fill a void, which it doesn't, it just makes you feel more stupid about yourself.

In my case something we came out was I am not happy with myself. This is one of the reasons I turn to p and m, and I try to fill the void with that. Now if I would feel good and accomplished with my day, I would be happy with myself and not feel the need to act out. Interesting enough I was able to stay clean almost the whole summer, because my days were packed with things to do. Then came the new zman and boom boom boom. One fall after the next. Because regarding my learning I felt I was getting on where and I felt like the world's biggest failure.

The way to get myself to be happy is to understand that I don't base my happiness off what the world thinks about me, rather when I feel I am doing well that IS a reason to be happy!

Now I have sunken pretty low that I didn't even have much to be happy with myself. So we set up a plan of action. Small little things that will make me feel accomplished. Some of them have nothing to do with yiddishkeit. The point was to get me to be happy with who I am.

So this is where I stand right now. I don't know where life will take me in the future, but you gotta take one day a time. I try not to fluff myself and say I am good now because expectations stink, they just end up ruining everything.


Thank you guys for being here at good times and bad.

Well if your still here at the end of this long post and your wondering who this wonderful tzaddik that helped me OPEN myself up, if is non other then: