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The Road To Being Honest With Myself (and others:)
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A recent scientific study shows that it takes 90 days to break an addictive pattern in the mind. Start your own Log of your journey to 90 days! Post here to update us on your status and to give each other chizuk to stay strong! See www.guardyoureyes.com/tools/90-day-chart.

TOPIC: The Road To Being Honest With Myself (and others:) 39852 Views

Re: The Road To Being Honest With Myself (and others:) 12 Jan 2018 04:17 #325344

  • Hakolhevel
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Watson wrote on 22 Nov 2016 21:12:
My £0.02 - I agree that we shouldn't push SA. I am guilty of having done that and I'm truly sorry. It does more harm than good.

Some aspects of SA on the other hand, like honesty, open-mindedness, letting go, working on improving our relationships and living life on life's terms should be pushed. Why? Because it's so different form what most of us (myself included) had been trying for years and decades.

Most of us come with preconceived ideas about what we want to achieve and how we want to achieve it. Only problem is, it isn't working. So we ask for advice. And we get it. And it makes us angry and defensive. We argue with the very people we asked to help us. It happens all the time, it certainly happened in my thread. Just look at how much I argued with Dov!

The truth will set you free. But first it will tick you off.

People come here for help and we ought to give it to them, sometimes at the expense of being argued with.

The thing is though, these concepts are crucial to recovery, whether you choose to go to SA, therapy or a Rav.

You have to be honest with your therapist / SA / your Rav.
You have to be open-minded to suggestions from your therapist / SA / your Rav.
You have to let go of porn in therapy / SA / conversations with your Rav.
You have to work on improving your relationships in therapy / SA / conversations with your Rav.
You have to learn to live life on life's terms in therapy / SA / conversations with your Rav.

GYE suggests 20 progressive tools, SA and therapy are both mentioned (way down the list, I might add) - guardyoureyes.com/the-gye-program/20-tools 

One of the best posts I have seen recently on the "big question" am I a addict or not. Or to be more exact, if I'm not an addict, what can I gain from listening to addicts.

Re: The Road To Being Honest With Myself (and others:) 13 Mar 2018 01:16 #328178

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Dov wrote on 27 Feb 2017 23:35:


HakolHevel wrote above:

@Dov yes you did respond to the question. I guess the follow up would be1) How does one define an addict vs a regular struggle.
2) I would agree that real friends are better, and most addicts need that, but I'm sure there are some that don't?

3) what's the g file and s file



1) In a very basic way, an addict being powerless means that he or she is unable to really enjoy a little of a drug without eventually having to go farther with it than he really wants to. The drug or the behaviors he engages in must be troubling him enough for him to feel that he cannot continue to live this way, but still does, even though he tries things like GYE, therapy, yiddishkeit, getting married - and even masturbating himself to 'get over it already' - yet still continues to use the drug again or ends up living in a way that he finds repugnant in order to fight it.

Typically addicts find that over time they get worse: progression. Though getting worse may be misunderstood by the addict him or herself because we tell ourselves that "The fact that I do xyz less often means I'm getting better!" - while the desperation may actually have increased, or the behaviors around xyz and become more risky and the lies we conjure to cover our tracks become more extreme. Addicts also find they experience withdrawal without the drug, which in a religious person might be covered up using ecstatic Teshuva feelings that are amazing - but actually lead to acting lust out again even worse (see a post called "The Nuclear Reset Button" for more on that, if you like).

2) Gevalt, chaver, why do you say that addicts need real friends but normals do not? How do you know that you - I always assume you are normal - are just too ashamed of yourself and your behaviors to do what is good for you? Besides, R' Elimelech of Lizhensk was certainly not talking to addicts when he wrote in #13 of his famous Tzet'l Kotton to speak to a real live friend, davka being completely open with him, and "V'al tchached shum dovor mipnei habusha." Could you possibly think that when o chavrusa o misusa was said it meant virtual friends? 

Jeff Foxworthy tells a great joke, "You might be a redneck if you've ever proposed for marriage from a payphone." Do you get that? Or do you figure that virtual is 'basically the same as real'. Everyone knows there is a huge difference here - and that is precisely why you and others avoid it.

Finally, (and worstly) there is surely a reason that phone sex does not constitute a kosher kiddushin. (admit that was funny)

The issue with being real and in person is not just an embarrassment issue. It's far deeper. Please read a post called "The Captain Kirk Moment" about this. GYE is great for a start - but the only thing I am really sharing with anyone here is the bad stuff about myself...that is half the story and gives little context to the bad stuff, hence little meaning so it remains tolerable. But if people - the one or two safe people you agreed to meet in person to come clean and start being honest - saw you and knew you and your life circumstances and reality, then the meaning of all that "zera levatolo and schmutz I saw again" is completely different! And we all know that that would really be 'forcing'  the two "you's" into the same room - the room being the clarity in the other person's mind. And that's what everyone wants to avoid. Not what we do, but the context of it that gives the true reality of it, is the core of the shame.

And addicts who have really hit bottom, overcome that shame with their pain and therefore get together with other real addicts face to face to get sobriety. We have no choice. This is what Chaza"l mean when they say "Hashem sent us allthe meviim and nevios to exhort Klal Yisroel -- and it all failed until Achashveirosh handed his ring over to Homon!"

True pain, real pain, is the only teacher, not all the Torah and neviim in the world. The Chaza"l is not saying Haman is better than Torah! And this Chaza"l is the simple answer to people who say "How can 12 steps work better than Torah, chas veSholom?!" Umm...Chaza"l believe that Haman apparently works better than all the neviim (including Moshe Rabbeinu, btw). Pain is the great teacher. The addict - and the non-addict - sho is not yet willing to do whetever it really takes to get better and still has 'standards', just has not suffered enough yet, that's all.

3) S file in my phone is for guys who are SA members (a worldwide 12 step lust recovery group) and the G file is for the contacts I have who are strictly GYE members. I am proud of the ones who are GYE friends I have who are not addicts and do not move to recovery like SA, for example - but many do choose to make that move and when it happens, I switch their first letter to keep 'em straight, that's all. So far it's dozens in both categories.

SA and 12 steps is certainly not for everyone and not even for every addict. But I just share and keep things as clear as i am able be"H to anyone who wants to hear about it and consider it. Not a giant deal, really. Love is the main thing that's needed, not much more. 

see the song "hashems the world" @1:54 and on "all the sleeping bears begin to wake up when it's spring" - Avraham Freid

Was nice to see Dov on the forum after hibernating all winter...

Which reminded me of the back and forth we (and some others) had about opening up to real people, which I resisted for quite a while.

I took many hours of listening to Dovs talks, reading many of his and others posts a open invitation from people to talk, and finally my own pain to open up to others. However B"H I did it.

Since I started on this journey, I have messed up (not slipped which sounds like it was unintentional) only once in the last 110 B"H, and that was partially due to slacking off on being honest and open...

So my message to others out there who have not taken this step yet, I know it's not easy, and you will probably resist kicking and screaming like I did. But when you do open up (to safe people), the game will change.

Hatzlacha Rabbo to everyone on their journey.

Hatlacha
Last Edit: 13 Mar 2018 01:18 by Hakolhevel.

Re: The Road To Being Honest With Myself (and others:) 23 Mar 2018 05:09 #328800

  • Hakolhevel
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So, been pretty good but... I need to stop following the news.

1. It's a waste if good time and we need - to quote Markz - "live life to the ma(r)x"

2. There are you many stories out there - even in mainstream news - that are unhealthy for a person like me.

So any advice or life experience anyone?

Re: The Road To Being Honest With Myself (and others:) 23 Mar 2018 08:01 #328808

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Hakolhevel wrote on 23 Mar 2018 05:09:
So, been pretty good but... I need to stop following the news.

1. It's a waste if good time and we need - to quote Markz - "live life to the ma(r)x"

2. There are you many stories out there - even in mainstream news - that are unhealthy for a person like me.

So any advice or life experience anyone?

I've found this to be true for myself as well. I used to religiously follow the news, listen to talk shows and podcasts, etc. until a few months ago. Realized it was just a source of negativity and stress and was not good for my well-being. Thankfully I was able to just stop pretty much cold turkey, with little trouble. I hope you can as well.

Re: The Road To Being Honest With Myself (and others:) 23 Mar 2018 08:44 #328815

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Hakolhevel wrote on 23 Mar 2018 05:09:
So, been pretty good but... I need to stop following the news.

1. It's a waste if good time and we need - to quote Markz - "live life to the ma(r)x"

2. There are you many stories out there - even in mainstream news - that are unhealthy for a person like me.

So any advice or life experience anyone?

Life experience? I learned school is a way to keep kids occupied until they're old enough to drive. And university's redundant. Learn to code, master a business software and people will hook you like crazy.

Hatzlocha!
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Re: The Road To Being Honest With Myself (and others:) 23 Mar 2018 11:13 #328827

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Personally i stopped listening to the news. The chesronos outweigh the ma'alos 100 to 1. So much kefira, immorality, gossip, minimizing of tragedies, etc.  BH i seem to always find out about anything important. After i stopped listening for about a month i wondered why i ever listened in the first place. It may sound radical, but it really isn't.
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Re: The Road To Being Honest With Myself (and others:) 23 Mar 2018 13:39 #328838

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Hashem Help Me wrote on 23 Mar 2018 11:13:
Personally i stopped listening to the news. The chesronos outweigh the ma'alos 100 to 1. So much kefira, immorality, gossip, minimizing of tragedies, etc.  BH i seem to always find out about anything important. After i stopped listening for about a month i wondered why i ever listened in the first place. It may sound radical, but it really isn't.

That's great News!
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Re: The Road To Being Honest With Myself (and others:) 23 Mar 2018 15:38 #328845

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I've found 2 sites to be very helpful in this regard. torahanytime.com has a ton of material with all different styles and topics. podcast.headlinesbook.com/ is another great respurce. It's not a classic shiur as you would find on TA, it's a focused weekly discussion that tries to provide the Torah perspective on current events that are often controversial.
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Re: The Road To Being Honest With Myself (and others:) 10 Apr 2018 04:10 #329459

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Acted out again during Chol Hamoed (after over 2 months of nothing). Only have myself to blame for getting lax and trying to live life like I did before I came here. I thought I was good to go. But as a wise man once said "if nothing changes, then nothing changes" and that applies even if you do some change in between.

That's not to say I have not progressed, but if I keep putting myself in old situations, I am at high risk to act out one of those times. No I don't need teshuvah Gemurah - Boso isha boso... I am happy if "al... Liyday Nisayon" and I just remain normal.

Re: The Road To Being Honest With Myself (and others:) 10 Apr 2018 05:12 #329467

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Hakolhevel wrote on 10 Apr 2018 04:10:
Acted out again during Chol Hamoed (after over 2 months of nothing). Only have myself to blame for getting lax and trying to live life like I did before I came here. I thought I was good to go. But as a wise man once said "if nothing changes, then nothing changes" and that applies even if you do some change in between.

That's not to say I have not progressed, but if I keep putting myself in old situations, I am at high risk to act out one of those times. No I don't need teshuvah Gemurah - Boso isha boso... I am happy if "al... Liyday Nisayon" and I just remain normal.

Thanks for sharing with humility, honesty and wisdom.
May G-d give you the strength you need to stay clean long term.

Re: The Road To Being Honest With Myself (and others:) 13 Nov 2018 00:53 #337187

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I haven't posted for a while so here goes.

The question still remains. Do I truly want to give it up?

Re: The Road To Being Honest With Myself (and others:) 13 Nov 2018 01:26 #337188

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Hakolhevel wrote on 13 Nov 2018 00:53:
I haven't posted for a while so here goes.

The question still remains. Do I truly want to give it up?

I don't know, but wanting is seeing the future to some extent. If that is correct then it should be a somewhat iterative process. Do you want it more than you did a while ago?

Re: The Road To Being Honest With Myself (and others:) 13 Nov 2018 04:14 #337194

Hakolhevel wrote on 13 Nov 2018 00:53:
I haven't posted for a while so here goes.

The question still remains. Do I truly want to give it up?

Nice to see you posting! Hope this doesn’t come across as too harsh, but for me that question was always an excuse. An excuse to give in this time, and wait until I had a moment of inspiration where I finally realized I didn’t want to do this stuff anymore. Then, I would quit forever! 

What does it mean anyways to TRULY want anyways?

To feel that desire? To think it? Thoughts and feelings change constantly, don’t wait around for them to live your life. 

KUTGW and good luck! You can do this, trust yourself! 

Re: The Road To Being Honest With Myself (and others:) 13 Nov 2018 19:15 #337211

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I don't think it to be concious, I just know that setting up solutions that might actually work have always been tough to get done.

I think its Because in the back of my mind I know it means giving up on the sweet porn. Which although I profess I don't want it, I definitely still do.

That being said, you may be correct, just ignore that thought like I should ignore other excuses and keep moving forward...

Re: The Road To Being Honest With Myself (and others:) 13 Nov 2018 21:42 #337218

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Hakolhevel wrote on 13 Nov 2018 19:15:
I don't think it to be concious, I just know that setting up solutions that might actually work have always been tough to get done.

I think its Because in the back of my mind I know it means giving up on the sweet porn. Which although I profess I don't want it, I definitely still do.

That being said, you may be correct, just ignore that thought like I should ignore other excuses and keep moving forward...

I think you may be onto something. Some people may refer to this "wanting" as commitment. If you lose your job and your family due to addiction, commitment is easily found. For average people though it's not. This is because the decision to sincerely use recovery tools is not black and white. A good way to resolve the issue is to list the pros and cons of acting out vs using the tools. Take a look at the section on "pros and cons" in my thread below, then write your own. By the time you get done writing them down you should have a tremendous wind behind your back.
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