Yosef Tikun HaYesod wrote on 20 Nov 2016 13:23:

Re opinion 2,  when one has a desire to sin and he refrains he will be rewarded for the time her refrains. In the case you mentioned, he actually is rewarded for  an actual mitzvah of לא תסורו. Why should it make a difference if he falls tomorrow?

Watson wrote on 20 Nov 2016 13:38:

II am pretty blunt and open, but I don't understand why you want a fellow in recovery to write words he is uncomfortable with. Yes, we have written many bad words in our browsers in the past, but now, he wants to turn the corner.

So you agree with me when I wrote: 
 I strongly disagree (don't believe) that HaShem considers that you have already sinned, knowing that you will sin (let's say) in 5 weeks. Only for mitzvahs does HaShem consider machshavak'maaseh...NOT for aveiras! And if you hold out for 5 weeks and then sin, HaShem rewards those 5 weeks tremendously and they are as precious to Him as doing positive mitzvahs. It's not at all as if he has done/accomplished nothing, just because HaShem knew he would eventually sin in 5 weeks. That's ridiculous and wrong.

cordnoy wrote on 20 Nov 2016 14:32:

Honesty.

Let's not pretend we're so sensitive that our holy eyes can't even look at a dirty word.

It increases the hypocrisy, the shame and thus the problem.

As to your point, YTH, IMO you're mixing up two distinct concepts.

Since it's statistically unlikely you're an addict, I'm not going to say much of my nonsense here. All I wanted to point out is that you said a few times that you didn't think you could last 90 days. Most people don't sit there not looking at porn all day, most people go to shul, go to work, spend time with their families and enjoy life.

I'd encourage you to not spend 90 days trying to not look at porn, but rather let the pornography go entirely, no strings attached, and try to improve your life, your relationships, etc.

What a mess I've made of trying to say one simple thing. Well, OK, 2 simple things. My own fault for posting before my fourth cup of properly brewed English tea.

Watson wrote on 20 Nov 2016 14:47:

Each person should be honest with themselves.

and with others, IMO.

Yosef and Watson
this is an old discussion if you should call a spade a spade. See 
https://guardyoureyes.com/forum/1-Break-Free/116708-why-be-afraid-of-saying-Pornography-Maturbation

IMHO someone that has a subtle lust disease non addict can and perhaps should use Lashon Nekiyah.
But like we say, honesty is the first ingredient in your English HonesTEA

Awesome post, Markz. I read ALL the posts from about 5 years ago...and feel much better.
I'm not in the twilight zone...or am I...
Several posts expressed my feelings on the matter. Perhaps the most was:
"I think that for some people (maybe me) there could be a risk that even using the word 'masturbation' or 'porn' could cause them to start thinking about it, and that can quickly turn into a sort of, 'Well... Don't you really want to do that?' 
To be very blunt, and perhaps rude, but it's the only way to really express what I am basically saying:
It's like saying the word: FULL-CREAM-VANILLA-ICE-CREAM!!!!mmmm....
 in a location where everyone is on a diet."

We are all trying to avoid looking at women, and pictures of women, and thinking of sex, and watching porn, and avoid masturbating, and wasting seed. So, let's all talk about it as explicitly as possible. Nothing bad will happen. Nobody will be triggered to actually do those things anymore. We are all WAY past that. Right! The full-cream-vanilla-ice-creammmmm mushel is perfect. Talk about that over and over and over again to a dieter trying to watch their diet and weight, and see if they will have no problems or backslide.
Then, add to that the sensitivity, not just to other people's tests, but the sensitivity to speech that we are all supposed to have as frum Jews. And it seems at least a no-brainer that nobody should be told that he SHOULD always say everything explicitly...and/but never use the word aveira. 

So, who has something instructive, learned from experience, that I can
gain from, that will help me succeed?

Now I feel like I'm in the twighlight zone.

The rat in the video was not doing an aveiroh by drinking the water with heroine in it!!

To say "when things are going well I don't do the aveiroh" misses the point in the video entirely.

If you want to talk about addiction, don't say "aveiroh".

If you are not an addict but a frum Jew doing teshuvah, don't talk about rats.

What I'm trying to say is please don't mix up two different things. Don't say you have an addiction to doing an aveiroh. If it's an aveiroh, do teshuva. If it's addiction, get into recovery.

Oh dear. It's my fifth cup of tea today and I'm still not making sense 

Yosef Tikun HaYesod wrote on 20 Nov 2016 17:56:

II had success with....

Talking to real people
Therapy
Meetings
Phone conferences
Reading the books
Sponsors

Excellent idea. I am a frum Jew who has a bad habit of looking at immodestly dressed women, masturbating, and wasting my seed.
Since these are aveiras, I want to do teshuva and break this bad habit.
The problem is, and the reason I am on this site/forum, is that I have tried many times in the past to break this bad habit and to stop doing these aveiras, but I have not gotten past this long-term. I may have stopped for a few months, usually less, and then I fell back into it (excuse the euphemisms...I can't help it).
My idea was that by regularly emailing 1 or 2 sponsors, and by joining the 90-day chart, and by posting my experiences here...up to a year or two, and by asking for help from those who have experience succeeding, I would greatly increase my chances of long-term success ridding myself of this aveira.

I realize that some people on here have an addiction. And that this is quite different. However, I think that there must be many similarities too. And I think that perhaps I should be able to learn from the experiences of others, even if they have an addiction. 

The rat is a mushel for us. And the heroin water is a mushel for watching pornography and masturbating.
The point of the video was that EVEN for heroin which is such an addicting drug, the rat in "rat park/heaven" was able to choose to avoid it. Thus, if we create and surround ourselves with a good, connective environment, where we are happy and all our needs our met, then we will be able to choose to avoid video games, heroin, pornography, alcohol, or whatever the "heroin water" is for us.
Of course, the video didn't call the rat drinking the heroin water, an aveira.
Rats don't do aveiras. Don't be ridiculous. 
Help me do teshuva.

Thank you. What you're saying is wonderful. Get help doing teshuva. Beautiful.

The rat is not a moshul. It's making a point that applies to addicts. The opposite of addiction is connection. The opposite of an aveiroh is charotoh, azivas hachet and viduy.

Please don't blur the lines between an addiction and an aveiroh. You wouldn't watch a video about addiction and apply the lessons to keeping kashrus or not speaking loshon hora. It's important IMO to be clear about what path we're on. As you've already discovered, an addict will suggest something that might be the worst thing for you. And vice-versa.

Am I making sense? I can't tell anymore.

The only advice I can offer is the post I linked originally which kicked off the debate. Don't just sit there trying to not masturbate for 90 days. Let go of the porn from the depth of your heart and get on with living.

Well, that's enough mess from me for one day. I'll get back in the basement now. Carry on everybody.

o.k. I'll try to take that advice. NOT so easy, but whatever.

Are you saying that I can't get the help I need to do teshuva here?
Are you saying that most active posters here are addicts, so their advice won't be good for me?
If so, who can help me?
Still confused as ever...maybe the tea was spiked with scotch.