45/50 = .900

It's interesting that you connect not liking the spotlight with this struggle. 

Since I've joined gye I really changed in this regard. While I still don't like having people look at me I've become a lot more comfortable with it. I still always think about what other people are thinking about me but I don't care nearly as much anymore. 

I've also become a lot more outgoing and friendly. A lot has happened during these past few years so it probably isn't only gye that caused this but I do think it can claim some credit.

Dov always talks about how hiding is part of the problem.Maybe it is connected.

46/52 = .885

I haven't been able to post the last couple nights since I've been getting home late from work.

I started reading the white book lately. I find it interesting that the first "tradition" listed makes personal recovery dependant on being a part of the group. I'm starting to realize that a little more lately. As I stated previously, I've always tried to deal with this by myself. I see now that that has to have played some part in why it hasn't worked.

Have a gut Shabbos everyone.

Great post

KEEP ON POSTING

BEHS wrote on 17 May 2016 03:46:

I don't know. My guess is that it's just as common with addicts as it is with non-addicts.

Do you have a therapist?

BEHS wrote on 20 May 2016 21:27:

Can I ask you - why are you reading the White Book? Do you think you are a real addict?

Not everyone who has difficulty quitting their acting out is a real addict. Take a look at the second link in my signature, at the part entitled 'How can I tell if I'm addicted?'

If you are a real addict and really want to recover, I'd recommend reading page 63 of the White Book, especially the first paragraph.

47/54 = .870

Watson,

Here are my answers to the 20 questions on page 8.  Feel free to tell me your opinion.

1) Yes
2) Yes
3) Possibly
4) Yes
5) For Sure!!!
6) Yes
7) Possibly
8) Yes
9) Not typically, but it has happened
10) Not "party", but if I see a link...
11) No
12) Sometimes
13) Not sure about the question, so probably no
14) Not in physical terms, but emotionally
15) Yes
16) Yes
17) Not sure about the question, so probably no
18) Not "partner", but computer yes
19) Yes
20) No and hopefully never

I have no opinion.

I was listening to a shiur by Rav Akiva Tatz on free will. It essentially boiled down to discussing the concept of a nekudas ha'bechira. (Our past, along with the situations we have been handed, determine the spiritual level we are on, but we are only truly tested on the actions we take at that level. A tinok sh'nishba isn't held accountable for the same things as Rav Moshe Feinstein, and Rav Moshe isn't rewarded for not behaving like someone who was raised in Harlem. We are held accountable and we are rewarded based on the choices we make at our level.) [Feel free to chime in or PM me if further clarification on the topic is required.]

Someone in the audience asked about people with addictions, and he essentially shrugged off the question saying that it only changes the degree of difficulty we face in making the right choices. But that doesn't change the fact that our actions when facing a test are 100% because of our free will. Nature didn't cause us to make the choice, our past didn't do it, our addiction didn't do it. We did the action because we chose to do it. Any other reason given undermines the idea of us having free will.

My initial reaction was that this is very empowering. It says that the buck stops with me and only I can stop it if I want to. But then I started wondering how this works with the 12 steps. Doesn't it fly right in the face of steps 1 and 3?

I'm curious what the GYE veterans have to say about this. Is it just that we give over our situations and nekudas ha'bechira to Hashem, or are we essentially saying "take back our right and ability to choose"?

48/56 = .857

I'm not a veteran 12 stepper at all -I've never done them in my life although I'd love too 
but I don't see what the issue is we have a choice to keep on fighting and lose or to surrender to G-D and win 
we also have a choice and free will to choose just a very different choice then everyone else - just my 15$

BEHS wrote on 24 May 2016 00:57:


I believe that Rabbo Twerski addresses it. From what I remember reading on his site about the twelve steps, I believe that he explained that an addict may not have free will to stop or even to fight it, but he does have a choice to go to AA/SA so there is something he can do that is within his realm of free will.

Ah BEHS, I remember watching the exact same shiur and having the exact same thoughts.

In SA we have an expression:
Without G-d I can't; without me G-d won't.

I'm no philosopher. When it comes to GYE I tend to focus on just 1 question - is my approach working?

WG, I'll make sure to look at Rav Twerski's site and see what he says. But I'm mostly looking for a way to reconcile free will at the time of the test with the 12-step approach.

Watson, I'm still looking for the approach. (Maybe I should consult with Sherlock.https://mail.google.com/mail/e/1f601) That saying sounds to me like it takes two: me and הקב"ה.

At first glance, that seems to contradict the whole point of the שיעור. If I fall, Rav Akiva Tatz would say it's because I made the choice to fall. And while that empowers me to choose not to fall next time, it still means that I did it by myself this time. But if we say that it takes two, how do I know that I fell? Can't I just blame it on Him not helping?

I'm still not 100% sure about how it fits in with the שיעור, but after I reread your saying a few times, it really puts the onus on me. If I fell, it's either because 1) I didn't let Him help, or 2) I didn't even show up to the challenge. Perhaps that's the choice that I make when faced with the challenge.

Maybe that's the mantra I've been looking for: show up to the fight, He's already there waiting. (Maybe we didn't need Sherlock after all!)

49/57 = .860

BEHS wrote on 25 May 2016 03:26:

I don't know about you but I know that I have lost the power of choice. You said "at the time of the test" - my friend that is way too late to start thinking about the 12 steps. If I leave it till then I will act out. That is a fact for me.

Part of my denial all those years was that occasionally I had strong urges and didn't give in to them. So I thought I had won that round. I didn't realise that I had not overcome the urge, I just delayed it a few days. I always fell in the end. I lost the power to decide that I would not act out any more.

The 12 steps are not an emergency tool to overcome urges, they are a way of growing spiritually and emotionally. They are worked daily in good times and bad, not reserved for the heat of the moment. Unfortunately they cannot be explained on a forum or in a book, they need to be done in a fellowship of real people doing the same. Otherwise it's like reading some books about carpentry but having no actual experience. Sure, you can talk about carpentry, quote lines about carpentry, explain carpentry, but can you actually build a table?

Hope that helps.

Watson, I agree with all that you wrote. My questions on this topic are more philosophical than practical. My enjoyment in learning comes primarily from machshava, so when things are contradictory I like to work them out. I have noticed from other posts and the emails that that's not always a good trait when it comes to sobriety. It seems like sometimes you have to just do what works regardless of whether or not you understand it. That being the case, we'll just move forward with a taiku on this topic.