Hakolhevel wrote on 17 Dec 2021 14:34:

by doing the things you like, as long as she likes them as well; why would you need to 'skip' anything?

Hashem Help Me wrote on 17 Dec 2021 12:20:

I love it!

Maybe it would have been even better to change the word "never" to "often" or "many/most people find" and the phrase "you will not be able to enjoy the incredible real pleasure of sex" you can say "you will be making it very difficult to enjoy the incredible and real pleasure of sex."

Very clear message, thanks!

Dearest Rabbeinu HHM Shlit"a, this is an unbelievable post.

Please forgive me, but I must humbly respond that your words would not have moved the dial for me (when I was in the throes of taavah) for the following 3 reasons:

1) While the natural drive for sex quite possibly does not revolve solely around ejaculation, that does not mitigate in any way the fact that we men are very much wired and driven to ejaculate (unless I am missing something). How did you address this?

2)  True that we feel like garbage after porn/masturbation binging...but we also experience a significant sense of relief (especially if our taavah is anxiety-driven). If this is not validated, you have neglected to address a major component of the endless cycle.

3)  I would never, ever - tell a single porn addict to "hold off" for the primary reason of eventually "enjoying the incredible real pleasure of sex." Just as I don't tell struggling talmidim to conquer their yetzer simply to earn olam haba. When it comes to addicts, if the short term benefits are unaddressed, then the gap is simply too great and insurmountable.

I would humbly suggest that you insert something to the effect that the heroism of conquering creates an unparalleled feeling of success, and that no pleasure in this world comes remotely close to that sense of satisfaction and pride..

Ramchal says it best in the first perek of his heilige mesilas yesharim:
״כפי השיעור אשר כבש כן ישיגהו וישמח בו״
These words are certainly not limited to the next world.

Your post may work for a specific type, but I believe that an additional approach must be incorporated for a significant portion of the world of P/M addicts.

With deepest respect and Grodnian regards,

IMG

Hey, firstly I’d like to publicly thank HHM for everything he does for klal yisrael, I myself personally AND have friends that were helped so much from HHM, keep going strong! Your a great help! I would like to comment on what HHM said and tie it in with what IMG said In his first point. Often people masturbate (I’m not gonna say watch porn. Cuz that’s mainly triggers and often the pull for exciting stuff) because of some sort of built up lust tension they’re looking to release.. and masturbation really does give them a strong sense of relief to continue for the next few days/weeks. MY HUMBLE OPINION IS- There’s a part to what your saying HHM that we should realize that porn and masturbation really doesnt live up. I’m sure it’s true for the people that find themselves masturbating multiple times in a row. Cuz they’re just trying to reach some sort of pleasure that obviously isn’t living up so they keep needing to do it again. And similar for the porn users because that trains the brain to focus and love the excitement and that causes us to keep wanting more and we forget the actual focus on what sex is. But for some single - non married strugglers that are overall doing fine but fall with masturbation here and there to relieve they’re lust. I don’t think it’s fair and valid to say masturbation isn’t giving them much. And that we aren’t wired to masturbate. Sometimes we trained ourselves to get something from masturbation. And we have to fill it up with kosher stuff like you always say - exercise. To sort of navigate through that. “I think we can really honestly become aware of this if we ask ourselves REALLY honestly, if it was mutter to masturbate every night without any pictures or triggers etc. would i never fall?” Sometimes masturbation is just another trigger and if we’d be doing it long enough we’d fine something else to excite ourselves. I find this question helpful to understand why we masturbate and where we’re holding and what we’re trying to get out of it. I had a small story of mine that I once emailed to HHM and this was his reply: sorry it’s graphic-

“Today, I was struggling alot. Really wanted the release that masturbation would give me! As I was debating if I should go to the bathroom and do the aveira.. I decided im gonna try another type of outlet instead! In my dress clothes with my white shirt suit pants and dress shoes… I decided to just run! I knew there’s no time to think or change cuz or else id might of given in. So I started to run outside and I said I’m gonna run and get an outlet from exercise! I felt like everyone was looking at me outside funny… but I didn’t care… as I was running… an interesting thing popped into my head and I think it can be a major chizuk.. So many many times I run and I make excessive efforts to do an aveira! I run and run! How many times do we run to serve Hashem the same way?!? With such passion and excitement and willpower the same as we do with an aveira when it comes to sexual stuff! Tonight I felt was the first time I’m running to something leshem shamayim! I wanted to share this.. the idea all of us at some point ran and run to avieros with such passion! Let’s try to copy our yetzer hara and run to do mitzvos in the same fashion! Tonight for me- it was exercise cuz I so badly needed the relief! It kind of felt funny usually I’m running to the bathroom to get the pleasure.. tonight I ran toward Hashem to get a kosher relief!”

HHM’s reply:

“Beautiful! You handled a tough situation very well tzaddik. And you trained your mind to change the script. The script does not need to read "And he had an urge and had no idea how to relieve it other than masturbating, so he went to the bathroom where he unzipped, pulled out his penis and rubbed until he ended up with a sticky mess, and a depressed brain". Instead the script said "And he had an urge, and realized he needed some relief so he ran until he raised his heart rate, releasing healthy endorphines in the brain, and felt great about himself". (You should post your email and my response on the forum - if you want. Guys need to understand they can choose differently.)

Just wanted to clarify that often there is a need we created for masturbation in our brain to calm and soothe us. And we can have a replacement.

Last night there was a question and answer session with Rabbi Stark from Rabbi Center's yeshiva in Eretz Yisroel. It was incredible. You can hear it by calling 848-777-4769, then press 1, followed by #. There is a short introduction from Coach Menachem. The actual program begins after a few minutes.

Hashem Help Me wrote on 07 Feb 2022 12:30:

Rabbi Stark is amazing! 

Is there a way I can download this online?

Hashem Help Me wrote on 07 Feb 2022 12:30:

This is such a powerful powerful speech!!!!

I don't know if that particular shiur is here, but here's the link to all his shiurim https://www.adereshatorah.com/audio_search.php?speaker=stark

Just wanted to share a concept which will possibly benefit the oilam:

The pornography industry has successfully promulgated the notion that sex is a sin. Along with that is a feeling that the "private parts" of a man or woman are "bad". To prove it, they point to the fact that society covers those areas.

Our response:

When one walks into a shul, one knows that there is a Sefer Torah there. However it is usually not visible. It is used on occassions of krias haTorah. Sometimes we see it by special tefillos like Avinu Malkeinu and the like, and of course we dance with it on Simchas Torah. Isn't it interesting that our most holy item is enveloped in secrecy? What are we hiding? What is "bad" about it? Of course even a little child would answer that this is a ridiculous way to think. We put the Sefer Torah in an Aron Kodesh behind a Paroches because it is so holy, so important, so delicate, and so needed. We are protecting it. It is not to be handled by anybody and everybody. Lehavdil, we do the same with expensive jewelry. Items are placed in velvet cases and stored out of sight.

There is one eiver in the body that is called "kodesh", and that is the bris kodesh. It is physically and spiritually delicate vulnerable and sensitive. It is very holy and very special. It needs to be protected. It b'ezras hashem is to be used for a great purpose. At the right time it will place some zera in the rechem of a yiddishe mama, and a child will be nurtured in that holy place, where a malach teaches that neshama Torah while in a protected safe and nurturing environment.  The "event" involved in placing that zera is a holy one - involving 3 partners/shutfim - the father, the mother , and yes, Hakadosh Baruch Hu. Shechina shru'ya bei'neihem. This action has been done by the biggest tzaddikim in all the generations. it is not a sin, nor an action that needs to be embarassed of. The Zohar HaKadosh refers to tremendous yichudim that take place...

The body parts involved in this process are not dirty, bad, or things to be ashamed of. (Yes, Adam and Chava had busha from their nakedness after eating from the eitz ha'daas - that was due to their comprehension that these body parts can be used by the yetzer hara too...) If any term could be used to explain this to children, or even how we adults should properly view them and be comfortable with ourselves, maybe it could be said that this area of the body is muktzah machmas chisaron kis - off limits due to it's immense value.

Comments? 

Hashem Help Me wrote on 08 Feb 2022 12:31:

Very well written.
R' Avi Landa wrote a similar point in "Maintaining Kedusha"
No matter how perverse or disgusting a person thinks his thoughts may be, it must be emphasized that this is not the case. His drives, urges, and thoughts are the product of a drive Hashem created and instilled within us. The privacy of this topic is due to the awesome kedusha connected to it, not b/c it is disgusting in any way. It might take some time for a person to feel comfortable with this message, but it is a necessary antecedent before working on the struggle directly. It is only after we mitigate the person’s struggling with shame (I am bad), that we can then implement a direct strategy of working on struggling with actions of masturbation and porn consumption.

DavidT wrote on 08 Feb 2022 16:05:

Not that it makes any difference, but I disagree.

cordnoy wrote on 08 Feb 2022 16:13:

Please elaborate on your disagreement.
(I don't know about you, but I agree to disagree)

DavidT wrote on 08 Feb 2022 16:55:

Maybe it comes from kedushah, maybe not, but understandin' that, or psychoanalyzin' that is not a prerequisite for recovery, makes no difference to me.

It's available on google drive at drive.google.com/file/d/1-qmJ_V7NDrOYCTMR6qQHV1oTjiH1PkPa/view