abd297 wrote on 27 Apr 2016 14:22:

I have a very similar feeling when talking to women as well, especially one lady who I interact with occasionally. I think it has to do with the fact that women have a certain natural emotional warmth whenever you have a pleasant interaction with them, and as I've said before, I crave a deep intimate relationship, so it makes sense that if I get even a small drop of that kind of warmth, it makes me feel good. Also, sometimes I get pumped that I just talked to a woman "even though you're not supposed to. HA!" Not sure that makes any sense but I'm not sure how else to express it.

That being said, there is sometimes a sexual aspect to it. The fact that I can look her in the eye and it's ok because I'm supposed to say thank you to her for the meal, well, it could feel good. I often have to focus on keeping my eyes on her's and not letting them slide elsewhere...

Gosh I sound ill.

Birshusi wrote on 28 Apr 2016 22:05:

Mayim genuvim yimtaku?

A big part of what I talk about with my therapist is people pleasing with women. Women/girls love me and I love charming them. But it's bad for me, I  become what THEY want me to be, but I'm not myself. 

I'm sorry everyone for the complications with the last few posts and hope everyone had a great and meaningfull Pesach. 

I really struggle with this past issue that we are discussing. I think we're all on the same page about it. What can be done about it? Is it a healthy desire?

I don't really have clarity on the issue. 

So much of this is subconscious. We don't even realize how different we act with the other gender. Another thing that makes the issue harder to address is that at the end of the day we live in the real world. In the real world we have to interact with women all the time. Acting gruff or aloof may not be the right thing.

Also I think it is a healthy desire. This is what a healthy male would feel. We need to control it but that doesn't make it unhealthy. Being obsessed with women is unhealthy, feeling attracted to them is healthy. (I should clarify that when I wrote earlier that making a woman laugh doesn't come from a good place I meant we may need to control it not that I think it's lust.)

I think I need to have a talk with a rebbi about it. I have a feeling each rav will have his own answer. I also see a huge difference between the way chassidish, yeshivish, and litvish people deal with this.

inastruggle wrote on 01 May 2016 03:19:


Two stories to share. One, saying that it's not ok at all, one showing the other way.

A prominent Rosh Kollel was supposed to speak in front of women but decided not to because he said if he even is a little bit funnier to attract women's attention, it could be יהרג ואל יעבר ואביזרייהו דעריות. They told the story to R Shach ZtL and he said "BH there is still someone in America with yiras shamayim". Don't know that story firsthand.

Second story- I personally asked my Rebbi, a world class posek who is pretty serious when it comes to gender issues but also very "normal". I said "Rebbi, don't people react to pretty girls and don't people enjoy talking to women? Isn't that normal?" He felt it was as long as there was nothing underlying.

But that's the kicker for us, I think. Can we trust ourselves to know? Sometimes I think that because I so don't trust myself I'm making it into something when it is actually nothing bc I Assume it HAS to be something. (If you can follow that)

Anyway, the answer probably has to do with knowing yourself, honesty, and asking your own Rebbi and Rov.

I think it personally has to do with what I get out of small gatherings and attention. I don't think it's only women but they are more emotionally understanding. I get the same out of small gatherings of guys too. It's less likely but with the right people, it has happened. 

It is obvious that we relate differently to men and women. If you are feeling anything that approaches a thrill during that gathering then you are playing with fire 

inastruggle wrote on 01 May 2016 03:19:

abd297 wrote on 01 May 2016 02:46:

Imagine a goy reading this last series of posts. He'd be so confused, what's wrong with these guys, trying to figure out if it's ok that they like girls. Yisroel Kedoishim Haim.

I just remembered what Rav Wolbe zt"l says in Alei Shur in the piece titled "Michtav Sheini." He says, based on Rabbeinu Tam, that not only is taavah for women not the yetzer hara, it --meaning the feeling itself-- is koidesh kodashim. That "taaveh" is actually there to make you be able to carry out the most G-dly action possible for a human being, and that is to become a shutaf with Hashem in creation. The problems start only when we take that feeling and use it to pleasure ourselves. He continues to talk about the perspective a bochur needs to have in order to inspire himself to try as hard as he can to remain pure. Ayin shum. It is for sure the most impactful piece I've ever read in any sefer in regards to taavas nashim. Every yid should learn it and know it.
This should help answer our question here. Not sure how exactly just yet; gotta think about it more.

inastruggle wrote on 28 Apr 2016 23:38:

But it's not genuvim, and it's not assur to have an interaction with a woman. Just the other day my neighbor, who I'm attracted to somewhat, started a conversation with me as I was walking to shul. It was fine, but I didn't want to talk to her because I'd get turned on, and once I did speak with her, I felt like I had "gotten away with it." She started it.

Whether you were OVER on particular issur or not, I think the way that talking with women/girls is treated in a frum society makes it mayim genuvim a little bit.  (I'm not saying you were wrong to respond to her)

The story with R' Shach is interesting to me. And B"N I'll look into R' Volbe, though I have seen it before..

My thoughts are that the thrill of having a girl laugh or smile with you is normal in the sense that most people experience it (though I'm not sure I agree it is healthy, or productive, at least for certain "brands" of yeshiva bochurim).  However, I have friends who never seemed to act any differently when interacting with girls/women than they would act with any other person. It wasn't exactly because of their frumkeit, but maybe they just did not "buy into" our society's norm of needing to impress/charm women, etc.  They also likely defined themselves by other things, and did not need the approval of every person they met, and especially pretty girls, to feel good about who they were. Maybe these are 2 points, and some people might have one and not the other.  

 

I'm not even talking about talking to girls my age at gatherings or whatever. I'm usually dealing with getting comforting feelings from women like hostesses, friends of my parents, and wives of rabbeim. 

abd297 wrote:

I'm gonna add something off topic

What about all the gruff cold Rabeim... So their wives are friendly, what's wrong with that?

Is it bad that a 19 year old looks forward to being in their presence and tries to impress them and get attention from them?