jack wrote:


I think what Dov is saying is that the addict has a disorder which causes him not to correctly apply the information and the rules and the lifestyle that he learns in The Torah, and it requires treatment through additional techniques and methods which aren't clearly explained in The Torah, in a similar sense that someone who suffers from attention deficit and therefore has a hard time learning Torah would need medical intervention which isn't clearly outlined in The Torah and for that matter the same as any medical condition. So the treatment would be to heal, by these means, the person's connection to Hashem and The Torah.

again, i agree wholeheartedly.but you STILL did not answer my question of why we beseech G-d in the meetings!

jack wrote:


I like one sentence questions and answers.
I read every post from before and I looked at the relevant ones again now.
What exactly are you askin'?
We beseech God always!
We surrender to Him and ask HIm to restore us tosanity.
We ask Him to grant us serenity and courage.
We ask Him to remove our defects so we can remain sober.
We ask Him to help keep us honest.
We beg for forgiveness.

Some is done at a meetin'.
Most of these should be done daily, hourly, etc.

b'hatzlachah

Perhaps I missed the boat of your question; for that, i am sorry.

it was not so much of a question as making a point.here's my original post of aug 11 that STAtrted this conversation:
Also, we say that recovery is not religion-based.it is a medical issue, as opposed to a G-d issue or a Torah issue. but if that's true, why is G-d mentioned in the 12 steps? we should be addressing the doctor, or a psychologist, or a psychiatrist, or medical literature as a higher power!!! obviously, it IS religion-based.true or not true?

what i meant to say was not in disagreement with dov, but that beseeching G-d and surrendering to G-d automatically brings G-d into recovery.does it not? if yes, we can't say that religion plays no role in recovery.and this makes a big difference.we are not using ONLY our knowledge - we are relying on a power outside ourselves. i'm just clarifying FOR MYSELF what recovery is all about.

Jack,

It seems to me that to your ears 'G-d' is synonymous with 'religion'.

I don't believe that is the case. There have been religions that did not worship G-d at all, but were idolatrous. Conversely there seem to be people who have felt the spiritual contact of G-d without belonging to any religion.

The 12 step program is a spiritual program, not a religious one. I think that may be why the big book qualifies its use of the term 'G-d' with the words 'of our understanding'.

I'll just leave off with a quote from the big book:

"Upon hearing this, our friend was somewhat relieved,
for he reflected that, after all, he was a good
church member. This hope, however, was destroyed
by the doctor's telling him that while his religious
convictions were very good, in his case they did not
spell the necessary vital spiritual experience."


p.s. I rarely come on the forum these days so I might not be able to respond to your response. Please don't be offended.

Hey Watson,

Nice to "see" you again!

eh, me no capisch. what's 'spiritual'? what's the difference between religion & spirituality? and if there IS a difference, why is G-d connected with spirituality? G-d should be connected with religion! you see my question? please answer, anyone.this is NOT just semantics. to me, this is the heart of recovery, and maybe the rest of my life too.

as far as being offended, the guys here are so friendly i have absolutely no fear of that, from anyone here.

For one thing, religion is a set of rules and practices that one follows in the worship of God. Spirituality is awareness of ourselves, our connection to people and the universe and our connection to God. You can be religious and be totally out of tune with spirituality and you can be spiritual ans not follow a defines religious worship.


There is more to it, but that's what comes to mind right now.

my good friend Jack just an idea I dont know if it will help you.........

The word religion originally someone once explained is "religar" in latin
which means to re connect which could mean to constantly remember G-d.
However most probally after the 18th century in Europe when people realise the corruption etc. of the religion...so people called it spirituality.....(I think)

Ok folks, this is my thread after all, no gaayva intended . So my 2 cents is in order here in this Brisker lomdus to make a shpalt between religion and spirituality which I think is not bechlal being maishiv keinyan. I repeat my hisnatzlus that I don't know the 12 steps. But duch... (my spell checker isn't working and I'm not sure if it shouldn't be spelled dukh) Or maybe I should just write duch/dukh.

Warning: Spoiler!

Pardon the double Dutch.

Let me quote someone bepseudonym omro, in order to bring the geula.
Hashivalisesonyishecho wrote:


So the point is: Yes the 12 steps are religious, but when Dov says that Torah alone won't do the trick, he means Torah as it is applied by the Torah addict. The 12 step program is the antidote to addiction. It contains religious application in the context of the 12 step approach to recovery.

Capisch?

eh, not sure.anyway, shlomoy above called me his good friend - that i capisch!

and sorry for using your thread.you mochel me? it's just you have a really great thread going here-

jack wrote:


Please keep using the thread. I would have a hard time being mochel you if you didn't. It's only a great thread because of people like you.

Are you and Shloimy an exclusive click or can I also consider you a good friend? I do anyway.

if everyone is gonna be jack's friend then at least they should know his niggun

u guys are too much.i thought no-one knew about that nigun anymore- that was in the good old days when i was beginning recovery.i did 6 1/2 months straight after that now-famous phone call. it was 38 years of up-down,up-down.i am far past those days - but i am still not perfect.i used to take my car during lunch and take a little, shall we say, detour, on my way to eat.haven't been in those places in years.i'm glad you guys pulled me back in - because i was in isolation for a couple years - no good for the likes of me.i had 2 threads - 1st time my story & jack-veiter. 'bout 4 years ago, i had a relapse - because of gaavah, plain & simple.i thought i was the king, then boom!

What do you mean in saying that that's Jack's nigun?