My intention in posting these posts of mine here is only to be helpful to others who might find some value in what I am saying. It seems though that all I'm doing is causing controversy and arguments, which is not my intention. Unless anyone is particularly interested in continuing this discussion, I think I'm letting it go at this point.

I didn't want to sound that way. I apologize. By the way I spent the last hour or so writing a comment and I erased it by mistake. The hashgacha pratis part is that while I was typing it I swallowed a drink wrong and had a major coughing fit. I was thinking it must be that my comment isn't Hashem's Will. Then I thought that's just me being superstitious and I continued to peck away. When I was almost finished, POOF went the comment!

I want to reiterate what I have said before several times, I have the utmost confidence that you will not only eventually find sobriety and serenity, you will also help others find the same.

Hashivali-v'chuliv'chuli...oy the pretend-names are so tiresome and such a sad pity, but here we go at bidieved:

I appreciate your piece-by-piece response to my rather lengthy post, above. There are some thoughts I have on what you wrote but you very wisely suggested ending your debating and I want to follow your example.

One thing I will point out a general observation that I feel may be meaningful:

You wrote:

most people here aren't here out of curiosity but rather in search for the solution to their problem...
Some of us are not ready to come to meetings because...
Those of us who have not yet found our paths to recovery need to...
many people don't take the necessary steps because of denial. But not everyone who doesn't end up going to SA meetings is davka in denial...
is completely necessary for those who need it and in my response I don't want to weaken it for those people...
The reason I have responded is to give validation to those who are searching for the solution...

It is certainly great that you are opening up to someone about the truth in yourself and your daily behavior, as ugly, childish, or dirty as it may seem or be, as I believe I have mentioned (perhaps to you privately?) the Rebbe R' Meilech writes just such an eitza to non-addicts. I find it a powerful new way of living, this openness and honesty thing. It's truly incredible.

So have you also revealed to them the exact nature of everything you already did in your teenage and adult past - even just once - to be fully disclosed to that person, whoever it is? If so, you are a very lucky man, and I bet you already have done just that!

But have you considered that we'd be more effective right here on GYE if we shared here about our own journey more than about what we think others need to hear or not hear or might misconstrue if they mis-read what we wrote, etc? There's great power in really disclosing our story here in as much detail as possible - not "in as much detail as we are comfortable". and also in letting all the truth come out to safe people in person, on an continuous basis.

Avoiding using our real names here is bad enough. It is a necessary evil, for it allows people who would otherwise not come here at all, to participate without fear that "surely someone will recognize me as soon as I use my name, 'Moishe'!" Heh. I use my name here, as others do in their posts, and have since I started here about 9 years ago. There is no other way, for me...but I came here from SA after about 10 years sober there. So it's different. I have not forgotten the incredible shame and hiding and faking and lying yet, though. Not a drop.

Gevalt. We are a scared and ashamed lot, aren't we? I have been there, and still am right there about things like my character defects that I prefer to hide and lots of other stuff that I probably do not even realize I'm hiding and 'varnishing' yet. But that's what 12 step work is about: Opening up to real people, and getting real friends and a real G-d and much more stuff, in return.

Your disclaimer was powerful:




Why write about the 12 steps at all, tho? If my own experience has taught me something, it is that writing about yourself - not about what you think, but what you do, will be most helpful to yourself and to us.

So consider that, chaver...and call whenever you like for schmooze!

Dov wrote:


My name is chaim aryeh

"ehh excuse me where is the exit please"

wow! 35 pages of posts! i'm reading this and reading, and reading, etc.there really is ONE step that we need - ok, it might take time to get there, but there is only ONE step needed - surrender. admitting that we are defeated, admitting that there is a Higher Ideal out there that knows what's good for us.we must surrender to it! listen to what that Higher ideal says! make ourselves small (literally & figuratively) for one reason and one reason only - because we trust this Higher Ideal, and we dont trust ourselves.surrender & submit to what G-d wants from us! i know it's not easy, and it takes much work.but in my mind, this is what recovery is ALL about and nothing else.i dont know if anyone agrees with me, but this is the way i see it after almost 7 years hanging around GYE. am i there yet? well, we're never really THERE - but we do get closer to being THERE.and I'm much closer than I was when i started.
love you all, jack

newaction wrote:


Wow! Such a concession powerfully demonstrates humility and readiness to do whatever it takes! Wow! Hashem should bentch you with kol tuv.

of course, you need the group support - we can't do it alone.in fact, in my humble opinion, the group support is THE most important aspect of the 12 step meetings.other people that share your struggles, all there trying to recover.it's absolutely amazing! r' twersky writes about the CEO of a major corporation sitting next to a bowery alcoholic in an AA meeting.outside, they are worlds apart.but in that meeting, they are on the same level, trying to recover from alcoholism.can you beat that? the love that one feels when they go to these meetings is really beautiful.it's like a holocaust survivors club - they know each other's pain in a way that no-one else does, and so they are united.or ANY group support meeting - the idea is the same.one cant do recovery alone.
jack

Hashivalisesonyishecho wrote:


AMEN !! Same to you !!

Readiness and Humility i did not have before as i have now;and there is room for much more.I am in a midst of a process.Thanks to your "nagging" about which way to go, and thanks to Dov's answer always incisive and real life it lead me to another bit of progress in my growth.And for that i am endlessly grateful.

P.S. I love you !

newaction wrote:


Wow again! When I read your post now this came to mind for some reason:
כך ישראל אין להם אלא לב אחד לאביהם שבשמים

P.S. I love you !

Thank you Hashiva very sweet from you. I get a lot of chizuk from you , very much appreciated.

Going back to our Inyan and whether it is relevant to you specifically , Dov's words deserve a lot of our עיון. Meaning there is a lot of what goes inside the addicts mind in them; especially the addicts from the frum and yeshivish community. It is worth noticing that honesty is one of the giants of recovery; meaning not withholding any secrets and being able to talk freely to another human being of all my defects, etc.
Honesty also means meet the person who is you. I am sure you are on that path , just pointing out that Dov's post cuts straight threw flesh and soul. And when i am honest with myself i can not disagree with him .
Keep On Trucking Holy Brother , a day at a time.!

newaction wrote:

Then for the sake of perfect honesty you need to face the fact that you aren't following him exactly as he says it. You don't go to meetings. But I think that you are wise to realise that you can take his message and learn from it and follow it in the way which is appropriate for you and which works for you. You do have people with whom you are completely honest and that is in following with what Dov is saying. I was also motivated to this by Dov and for that I am grateful to him. I see now that you and others here are saying basically what I have been meaning to say in the this discussion, that a very important part of the 12 step program is the fact that you are honest with others and you are working through the issues with others in a context of honesty.jack wrote:


But the most important thing for everyone is to make sure that what you are doing is working. If it isn't then search and don't stop searching until you find what works for you. There is certainly a way which will work and there may be no Yiush whatsoever.

newaction wrote:


And I too reveal my name: יונתן דאה

יוֹני

Gevura Shebyesod wrote:


yes, and the hebrew for doe is צביה or אילה