Thanks for the feedback רבותי each one is mamash mechazek me from his own angle. It really helps

BenHashemBH wrote on 09 Dec 2024 15:43:

I meant to encourage you to reach out, that you would not be judged by your chaverim.
Unfortunately, I see that what I wrote is invalidating your feelings - which is not my intention at all, and I apologize for that. 

odyossefchai wrote on 09 Dec 2024 15:15:

Oh wow thanks - I'm in al little financial crunch right now do you have some money I can borrow?

redfaced wrote on 09 Dec 2024 19:15:

I can lend, but I'll need you to share something really really embarrassing first

redfaced wrote on 09 Dec 2024 19:15:


I can lend you a clean pair of pants 

simchastorah wrote on 09 Dec 2024 15:09:

I definitely get where you're coming from. What I'd say is that the olam here is super non-judgmental about any and all urges that come our way.... Feel free to reach out, we've heard many types of urges..... 

simchastorah wrote on 09 Dec 2024 19:17:

This is embarrassing as heck
redfaced wrote on 11 Jul 2024 18:40:

simchastorah wrote on 09 Dec 2024 17:16:

This is true. It addresses most of what was said, and it’s a very valid point. 

However, for me, I still feel that reaching out to get to the place of overcoming has an element of nobility that counters the shame, and perhaps can negate it (ואולי גם מהפכו בשרשו לטוב). In that sense it’s different than your analogy. Going to the doctor to avoid an embarrassing medical incident isn’t laudable. Overcoming an urge is what makes us praiseworthy. Looking at it like this is something that’s worked for me. And I never realized how much I had to benefit from shedding the burden of Shame…. 

חיים

simchastorah wrote on 09 Dec 2024 17:16:

Fantastic post and discussion.

Two points.

1) If it was just talking to schmooze about the urge, then you would have an extremely valid point. But the point is that calling someone to share that your having an urge is an extremely powerful method of killing that urge. I think this is HHM's advice. Just calling someone and sharing is a powerful tool. And a part of the power of that tool I think is the sense of shame. Simply saying it out loud helps you realize how bad of an idea it is. So if you can, recognize that even though it's embarrassing it's also very helpful for you to do it and put on your (unsoiled) big boy pants and do it.

2) Without getting into whether or not you should feel embarrassment about this, the fact is that you do. But calling someone to share doesn't mean getting into every gory detail. It means the general picture. To continue with the incontinence mashal - you're not calling and sharing how you lost control and feces got everywhere and there were little flecks of corn leftover in there from the bbq last night and now your couch has a stain on it shaped like Australia that smells like rotten corn. That would indeed be embarrassing. You're sharing more the trigger that is making you want to act out, not the details of how you want to act out. 
E.g., I'm feeling frustrated so I want to pretend like I'm going on Youtube to check the news and end up spending an hour on inappropriate content. Not getting into detail about the exact shape and flavor of the inappropriate content.

This is, I think, less embarrassing. 

3) A bonus point. To echo CO's point about the Bastille of shame. It's totally normal to be ashamed and not want to reach out. This is something that keeps us trapped in acting out. We are effectively telling ourselves something like: "Oh, I'm so disgusting, so ashamed of my terrible life. I can't possible talk about this. The only thing I can do is to keep on acting out (since the ways to get out of acting out are so embarrassing.)" This is a very harmful thing. 

That being said, you can ease into reaching out. Posting is a good start. Then perhaps find one person whose posts resonate with you and reach out to them. One of the big guys maybe, who speak to dozens of people and if their contact list gets out half the Jewish world is going down with you. Then maybe make a friend or two. No rush, and no mitzva to speak to everyone. But opening up takes a hammer to the gates of shame, and it feels pretty darn good to be on the other side of that gate. This paragraph is literally just a summary of my personal experience. 

Hatzlacha!

Side point: I disagree with looking at the urge as a thought from someone who is "not me". It's helpful as a short term technique to avoid a given urge, e.g. urge surfing or find the fox techniques. But in the long term, you'll probably find that it is indeed you who wants these things, and that's why you do them. Not "society," not "the internet," not "the yetzer hara," but you.

And when you start realizing that you do want this, you can deal with resolving that want in a better way. But if you always disassociate yourself from the urge then you will never resolve those inner drives and they may pop up again in the most unexpected and unhelpful places.

Wow before any further response I need to go ahead and say thanks for those details!

@choosemyshem you made a bunch of good points, thank you.

In particular I find the differentiation between calling to shmuze and calling for help to be helpful, and the next point more so, that the focus is on the underlying feelings which are the cause of the urge, or the vacuum of power that the Russian government I mean the urge may come to fill, or whatever the exact mechanics happen to be.

Regarding your point about relating to the urge as "I" or not as "I" - I (whoever that is) think that it's a very hard topic to get a strong handle on. We know that there are different layers of the self, and we also hear various people defining the true I as different things.

When we investigate the urge/desire deeply we may find that there is some perceived deeply positive element to what this thing is doing for me, and we may identify the desire or pull towards that positive element as something which is rooted in an aspect of ourselves which we are more prepared to be מכנה בשם I. Failing to recognize this is dangerous, because any way of addressing the urge which does not address the "true" benefit that acting out does bring to us, the benefit that even the positive side of ourselves sees, will ultimately be recognized by us deep down as missing the boat. (eg I can tell myself from today till tomorrow that this is not fitting for me, and below me, but deep down I feel that this is where I get some semblance of love, and if I fail to recognize that then my "deeper" self will reject the more superficial message).

Because of the above I could understand wanting to say "it is me that wants this thing."

On the other hand, even if the desire on a deeper level is essentially positive, when it becomes enclothed in a desire for something which is essentially destructive, and does not in fact truly satisfy what is desired on a deeper level, that 'clothing' is itself something entirely different from what could have been a positive desire. It comes to have a life of it's own, with a leering imitation of something which could have been beautiful. And the forces at play, which take that deeper desire which is very positive, and mold it and twist it into something else, are very much not us.

This is how I look at it, does that fit with your view?

PS I'm glad I already didn't like corn

simchastorah wrote on 09 Dec 2024 21:36:

Reasonable minds can differ here. And it's important to remember that there's multiple elements going into an urge: there's normal masculine drives, there's habit, there's pleasure, there's probably inner emotional stuff, etc. etc. etc. And you don't have to figure all that out to get clean.

I'm not saying, "concupisco, ergo sum" (thanks google translate). I think I mostly agree with you.

In a very real inner layer lust is something I absolutely do not want. At the same time, if I totally didn't want it then I wouldn't be doing it - generally speaking people do not choose to do something they do not want to do (leaving any discussion of addiction aside). So saying "I don't want this" is not being honest with yourself. And that may come back to bite you later, especially by making you focus on externalities instead of inner work. You have to find a resolution that applies to the part of you that wants it, in addition to strengthening the part of you that doesn't want it.

chosemyshem wrote on 09 Dec 2024 21:10:

the initial urge is often not "me" at all.  hashem gave us a natural reaction to certain stimuli which does not at all represent what we want.  
with regards to the feelings of desire that we associate with our physical or emotional drive, see chapter 16 of The Battle of the Generation.  being able to identify and separate the feelings that are not coming from our intellect can be a very powerful tool. 

When i first started my recovery i truly believed that these feelings were a part of me and that people who told me "that's not really you" just didn't know me.  With time i came to realize that they were absolutely correct and that all of those desires were just the yetzer hara talking to me as if it was me.  Once i clarified for myself what it was that "I" really wanted, it was much easier to reject anything that didn't fit in to my real (logical) desires. 

Can we specify the difference between an initial urge, where it's coming from, and then subsequently what we do (or don't do) with it?
Vehkam and Shem, I'm not following if you are talking about the same things or different stages. Thank you!